What if the pain you’ve been avoiding is actually pointing you toward healing? with Alexis Leigh | EP 472

In this deeply moving episode of Grief to Growth, Brian Smith is joined by writer and seeker Alexis Lee, author of Pain Is a Portal to Beauty, for a courageous conversation about grief, trauma, and radical self-healing.

Alexis shares the moment that changed her life — hearing a voice while walking in the woods that told her her life would have been a tragedy if it ended that day. That message became the beginning of a profound journey into grief she had buried since childhood, including the loss of her mother and generational trauma carried in the body.

Together, Brian and Alexis explore what happens when we stop running from pain and instead listen to it.

This episode isn’t about fixing yourself.
 It’s about remembering who you are beneath the pain.

🌱 In This Episode, You’ll Explore:

• Why avoiding pain may be keeping you stuck
• How grief can live in the body for decades
• What “parts work” and Internal Family Systems teach us about self-compassion
• The role of psychedelic-assisted healing (MDMA, psilocybin, ayahuasca) in trauma recovery
• How pain can become a portal to beauty, authenticity, and love
• Why healing doesn’t require having a plan — only honesty

📖 About Today’s Guest

Alexis Lee is a writer, seeker, and advocate for radical self-healing. Her book, Pain Is a Portal to Beauty, explores grief, trauma, spirituality, and the courage it takes to turn toward what hurts.

🌐 Learn more about Alexis and her work:
 👉 https://alexislee.com

📘 Pain Is a Portal to Beauty is available wherever books are sold.

🤍 Continue the Conversation

And if you’re wondering where you are in your own grief journey, you’re invited to take the Grief Check-In — a gentle, judgment-free way to understand how grief may be showing up for you right now.

👉 https://grief2growth.com/check-in

Visit the Grief 2 Growth store for FREE items as well as other tools to help you along your journey:

• Guided Meditations
• My book GEMS of Healing (signed copy)
• My Oracle deck to help you connect with your loved ones
• Mini-courses
• Mini-guides
  
  

Check it out at https://grief2growth.com/store

Grief doesn’t follow stages, timelines, or rules.
If you’ve ever wondered, “Am I doing this right?”—you’re not alone.

That’s why I created the Grief Check-In.
It’s not a test. There are no right or wrong answers.
 

In just a few minutes, you’ll gain clarity, reassurance, and language for what you’re experiencing.

👉 Visit grief2growth.com/checkin

This deck is a labor of love. It's a 44 card oracle deck that's about connecting you to your loved one in spirit. The deck comes with a companion digital guide that gives you an affirmation, a reflection, and an activity for the day.

Check it out at https://stan.store/grief2growth/p/oracle-deck

Transcript

0:51

Close your eyes and imagine. What if the things in life that cause us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, are challenges? Challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. I'm Brian Smith and welcome to grief to growth. So whether this is your first time tuning in, you've been walking on this path with us for a while, I'm grateful that you're here. The show exists to help you navigate life's deepest challenges, to better understand who we are, why we're here and where we go from here. Each episode is an invitation to explore healing, purpose and the deeper truths that connect us all. Today's conversation is one I don't think you're going to want to miss. I'm joined by Alexis Lee. Alexis is a writer, a seeker and an advocate for radical self healing through unconventional means. Alexa left behind a successful career in finance and consulting to follow an inner calling, one sparked by a mysterious message she received on a walk through the woods. That moment became a doorway into a life rooted in authenticity, transformation and courage. Her first book is titled a pain pain is a portal of beauty, and it dives into the often avoided terrain of pain. And just as how when we stop running from it, pain can become a profound source of growth and meaning. In our conversation, we'll explore how psychedelics played a role in Alexis healing journey, the power of deep emotional work, and why our culture's obsession with avoiding pain might be keeping us stuck. So if you've ever felt like your struggle was too heavy to carry, if you question whether your pain had a purpose, or whether you're just curious about what lies beyond the limits of conventional healing, this episode is for you. So stick around to the end. And if the conversation speaks to you, I'd love to hear your thoughts. So jump on over my sub stack grief to growth that sub stack calm, where I'll be posting an article about this episode, you can leave a comment, you can share your own story. And you can connect with me and with other listeners. So let's keep the conversation going. And with that, I want to welcome Alexis Lee. Thanks, Brian. So great. What a lovely introduction. Great to be here with you. Yeah, it's great to be here with you too. And we're going to talk about some things today that, you know, make make some people uncomfortable pain being, you know, the main thing here. So I know you, your story, I don't know if it begins with but kind of pivots around, I guess, a walk in the woods. So let's start with that. Yeah, this was about five and a half years ago, I was walking in the woods one day and just listening to instrumental music. And I heard a voice that said, if you die today, your life will have been a tragedy. And it really, you know, struck so deeply to the truth of my experience. And I, I didn't know what the voice was, I didn't know, you know, just was kind of like, it just became clear to me that that was true. And, and everything from that moment shifted, I, I saw the reality of how pained I was. I mean, I don't think I saw the extent of it, but I began to see it. And every step I took after that was informed by this new awareness of my sadness and my loneliness. Yeah. And what do you what does it What did it mean to you that your life would have been a tragedy if you had died today? I think what it really just let me see is just how, you know, I had, I had all of the things in life, I had a lovely husband, we had a beautiful, healthy son, I had a good career, friends, family, I had all you know, everything that I wanted for myself I had. And so it so from an external picture, it seems like a life that wouldn't be tragic, a life that would be exactly what I wanted a successful life. And what this message helped me see was that if I died that day, I would have lived a very lonely life and a very sad life. And it would be a really tragic life, it would be a really something that I wouldn't want for myself or for anybody. So just helps me become honest about really the essence of my life, not these external pieces, but the reality of my internal experience. Okay. And what did what did you do with that information? Well, I'm not a whole lot quickly, right. So it's just kind of taking it in. But what happened, you know, my, my co parents and I and my ex husband and I were in counseling, you know what, it wasn't like I was super happy and realized I was sad. I was like, I was trying to find more love and connection in my life. And so I think my marriage was where I felt that most, where I wanted more love and connection. And, and I really thought that if we kept working at it, you know, we were in therapy for years. So I thought, we'll get there someday. And this, this voice said, you're not going to get there, like what you're doing is not working. So I think with my marriage was the biggest piece where I started to become less patient, less, you know, going with what our therapist told us, if we keep doing this, you know, things will change. I started saying things like square peg round hole, like this isn't working, getting really honest about the pieces that weren't working. And with that honesty, you know, came, came transformation, ultimately, my, my ex husband and I separated and 18 months later, decided to, to get a divorce. So that was the biggest first change. Other pieces came to but that was the most important one. I mean, I didn't, I loved my husband, I didn't want to let go of our family. That was the scariest change in the most painful change for me. But that was the first one. Yeah, yeah. So this voice is telling you that, you know, it's time to make some changes. And you said it began with your marriage. What other changes did you make? Well, I guess it began with a marriage in terms of the external picture, but what I knew immediately, I don't know how I knew this, but I knew that I needed, I needed to start grieving. So I had this childhood, you know, pain that I had been trying to unpack, but it wasn't, I knew that there was more and I needed to up those efforts. So I just started going on walks, listening to sad music and crying. And I, again, I didn't really know why I was doing it. I just knew, even in therapy, I you know, it's like, it was hard for me to really go to that deep place with somebody else. So this is important to do by myself. And one day I was walking in the woods. Sorry, I was walking into another set of woods. And I saw this picture of my grandfather who died by suicide and my mother who was a drug addict, and they found her body in a field. So very tragic demise there. And my 40 years of heartache and loneliness, and then the life that awaited my son and I just saw this such such a clear trajectory that this is what this is where we're headed if I don't make a big change. So there are these external pieces that then followed that clarity. But that I would say that was the biggest, you know, piece was for me to really slow down and start trying to understand the sadness, understand the loneliness, instead of running away from it. For so long, I just I didn't want to feel that way. So I filled my life with things to try to help me not feel that way. But I knew now I had to start actually embracing the pain and understanding it more. Did you feel like there was maybe was there generational sadness that was being carried throughout your family? I wasn't clear about that. You know, I had read books about that, you know, it didn't start with you those kinds of books. And so I was certainly open to that. For me, you know, I had so much trauma in my own life that I felt like there was plenty to unpack just from my experience. But I know we'll talk more about this at some point during the conversation. But ultimately, when during one of my psychedelic journeys, I did see that I was carrying my mother's, my mother's grief, and my grandfather's grief in my body. So I did connect with that more later. But at the beginning, it was more just seeing their sadness that then spreads just because, you know, when my grandfather died, then my mother carried the grief just from her experience of his death and the way he left, right. And then, and then she had her very dramatic experience that impacted me deeply. So it's kind of, I felt like it was isolated enough, there was enough isolated, right. But ultimately, I did see that current running through where I actually had their grief in my body. Okay. And you talked about this, this, after you had this voice, and you said you started, I guess, grieving, you know, something that had happened long before. And I know, in my work with people, grief is something I think that we have to just kind of kind of go through and feel. And do you think this was like a delayed thing that you didn't grieve it properly when it happened earlier? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I, you know, my mom was depressed, and then she became addicted to prescription drugs, and then ultimately went away to rehab. And then they found her body in a field. So I had this kind of layers of loss with her. And I was 11, when she left home 12, when she died, you know, younger than that, obviously, when she was home, but not present. So there was so much there. And I that I didn't have the resources to deal with. And there was a moment when we actually we went to visit her at rehab, the story was that she was going to go away for three weeks, and then come back home. And it took longer than that. And then we visited her. And when we left, I there was something in my body that knew this isn't coming back together. So that was a moment where my where my body just started numbing. So I had, again, I'm sure I was coping along the way. But that was a moment when the heartbreak was too much. And I stopped feeling. Yeah, absolutely. I think that this was something that I couldn't feel. And I packed it away until I was 38 years old. And my body said, Okay, it's time now. It's time to look at this. Yeah. And that the voice that you heard, what do you have you identified what this voice is, or where it came from? Yeah, I mean, ultimately, I think for a long time, I kind of thought it was something, obviously, it's something bigger than me in the way I've known myself. But I kind of liked the idea that it was somebody else. Because it just felt like, almost like I had that support. But ultimately, I believe that it was my body's wisdom. And that my body, you know, it's, I was not in my body for most of my life, because of this pain, I escaped that. So I was in my brain, but not feeling my own wisdom. And I think it was, it was my higher knowing my intuition. Of course, everything is connected. But you know, I do think it was, it was something that was in me that said, we can do this now. So it's time now, you know, I had been doing these efforts, I thought I was making so many efforts with therapy and all of this stuff. But the voice really was saying, you got to go bigger. Yeah, it's not working. What you're doing is not working. Yeah. So you were doing the things you were you were in therapy, and you were all the things that I need to do. And it and it, you know, got me to a place where, again, I heard this statement that said everything was absolutely a failure, right? Like if your life's if your life's a tragedy, it's not saying a couple things need to be tweaked. It's like everything's not going well. So it really encouraged me again, my son was a little was my North Star here, where of course, I wanted a better life for me for sure. But I, I desperately wanted to change our trajectory for him. And so it was so clear that I had to do big things, I had to do whatever I could, I had to stop listening to other people. I mean, there's so much where we there's so much noise in the world. And it's not that other people are wrong. It's just that only we know what's right for us. And so I had to learn how to listen to myself and to follow what felt right to me, instead of what a book told me to do, or what a therapist told me to do, or, you know, those kinds of things. Yeah, I think that's very true. We so often look for answers, you know, outside of ourselves, we'll go, we'll go to a book, or as you said, we'll go, we'll go to a therapist and what other people. So you, you started making these changes. How did that work out for you as you were making all these changes? Well, um, it was very hard, of course, you know, I loved my it's like I had the grief from a childhood to wake up to but then I had the grief of losing basically everything in my life and my marriage was the most important piece. But then my relationships with my family also fell away around the same time. And I knew that my consulting practice was not really my long term meant to be and so I started letting loosening my grip on my work. friendships fell away, I mean, everything fell away. And so it was a period of aloneness, and deep grief, both in what I was revisiting from my childhood, but also losing all these pieces that I loved in my life. And that was really, you know, incredibly painful. But also, I started to wake up like my I started to come alive, you know, there are things like I started to do dance. When I when I went through such a hard time, I was really focused on how to balance that, right, because I'm a mom and I have to show up. So what do I need to do to take care of myself so I can still show up for my son. And so that was going for runs in the forest. And it was going, you know, paddleboarding on the river and going to dance class and doing all these things that really fed my soul. So as painful as it was, it also was a really beautiful time of reconnecting with me. And, and, you know, filling myself up with all these things that really brought me to life. Yeah. So you mentioned your consulting practice. And, you know, so, you know, you talked about losing a lot of things that we think of as, as maybe our even our identities, right? Being a mother being a wife, you don't use your son, of course, but being a wife and having this consulting practice, did that give you another thing to grieve? And, you know, I think what's so I think there was so much to grieve there. But there was so much that started to uncover. And that's why, you know, the book is called pain is a portal to beauty, where I started to discover these really essence parts of me that I had lost touch with for so long. I mean, I always thought that I was so devastated for losing my mom, and I was, but when I numbed, I lost myself. And so this really was a time where I was letting go of these pieces. And that's terrifying. And, you know, typically, my experience is that when you let go of something, you don't get the replacement yet. So you are sitting in this place of just goo is how I felt for a long time. But then you start to discover, you know, I discovered dance as an adult, and I discovered that I was a singer. And ultimately, I thought I was a terrible writer. And during one of my periods of grief, this book started coming through me. And so I had these incredible, you know, to go from a life that was so sad, as much as it was hard to let go of things, I was also, I didn't have so much to lose in that way, because I did feel so, so deeply lonely. And when I read it is we discovered parts of myself, I, I didn't feel lonely anymore, right? Like, these core wounds started to be healed. And, and so I don't mean to say it was an easy time. It was incredibly painful, but it was also so beautiful and enlivening in a way that I really don't remember during my life. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's the that's the paradox, I guess, or the irony about having to lean into our pain to get the lesson from or to get the beauty from it. Because naturally, I think biologically, we're wired to avoid pain. And we're and we're in, you know, people say, just, you know, buckle down or buckle up and just, you know, strap in and go through it and endure it. But there has become a point where you become brutally honest with yourself. And it sounds like that's what you did. Yeah. And, you know, for me, there were all these, there's, you know, internal family systems where we have these parts of ourselves that get traumatized at the various ages based on what we went through. And so when I'm just coping with everything, I don't know any of those parts of me, I don't know any of that grief in me, because I'm numbing, and I'm, you know, just completely unaware. And as much as it's painful to go there, we're carrying that pain, even if we don't know, even if we're not aware of it. And so when I would, when I would discover a young part of me that needed love, and to need it needed to be understood for what she went through, or to feel the feelings that I couldn't feel, then, then that part feels so soothed and so loved. And, and what happens is, that's when I discover I'm a writer or a dancer, some of these things kind of come alive with that part. So there's, there's this really beautiful, you know, it's like, you don't, you didn't know how much you were hurting until you, you go toward it. And then you can get to the other side. Yeah, yeah, really good point. For people that aren't familiar, could you familiarize them with internal family systems? Yeah, so this is something that my therapist introduced me to years ago, and she just introduced me to the, the idea that I have a little Alexis in me. And so there's a little Alexis that went through something really hard. And when I have these feelings, then it's that little part of me wanting my attention or my help or something. And so I thought that was kind of awkward, because she would have me kind of put my hand on my heart and talk to this little part of me. And I was like, gosh, I'm, I'm two versions of me like this is, I thought it was awkward. But I started to do it, I started to because I think also, when you don't know, when you don't have that sweetness for yourself, it's, you know, it can be really hard to be compassionate for to yourself for what you went through, especially as an adult, it's like, I should have my stuff together, right? Like, why am I having these issues? Right. But I started to try it out. And I thought, okay, you know, can I picture some other little girl who lost her mom, and that's sad, and I can be sweet to that little girl. So can I kind of borrow from that and treat myself sweetly. And so it kind of started to develop a relationship between between me and this little part again, internal family systems is like you have these parts of yourself that went through something traumatic, they couldn't process it at that time. That's what trauma is, right? Like it kind of, it's something that was beyond their capacity to handle. And so they're stuck, there's stuck energy there, basically. And when you can go relate to these parts of you as those stuck, the stuck energy as little, you know, innocent children that went through something, then that energy actually becomes unstuck, and it can start to move in places where you feel stuck as an adult, you don't know why you keep doing things a certain way. Well, when you can turn toward yourself with compassion and love, then those things start to move in a way where you don't have the same issues anymore, because you're, you're acknowledging this part of you. And you're sending love to that stuck energy, which again, lets it move. So what I thought there was a little Alexis and a big Alexis, and so you have kind of your higher adult self that can do this for your, your little child. But as I was going through this huge grief process, after my co parent moved out of the house, I found out I have many little Alexis. It's like, one was angry from this thing, and one is sad from this thing. And one is fearful from this thing, like they have different needs. And so it can be a lot if you have a lot stored, like I did, it can be a lot to navigate where you're trying to be sweet to all these ones, you know, you kind of have to pick the one with the most urgent need and be sweet to them. And the others have to be patient and wait till you have time. So it's, it is like a parenting process where you go to these little parts. And you say, Well, you know, how can I care for you right now? So there's a parenting in terms of giving to them. But there's also they, these little parts, again, they have stored with them these gifts from our childhood, you know, the pieces that had to go to sleep with them. And so they also these parts can can offer such exquisite gifts when we come toward them as well. Yeah, thanks for thanks for explanation. I've been hearing more about this, you know, as I've gotten older. And I think it's a really good model. It seems to be very helpful for people to understand these different parts of ourselves, even though they're I don't think they're literal parts of ourselves. But it's just a good way of looking at it. Because so many of us don't realize that we were we were wounded or the ways that we were wounded, because we don't take the time to, to take care or even know that we have permission to take care of ourselves. Right? Yeah, I mean, I recently just as a kind of gentle example, I recently felt loneliness one day, and my son was with his dad and my house was quiet. And I immediately went to Okay, what am I how am I going to fill my time? Or what do I do to basically not be lonely. But then something in me realizes loneliness was a part of me a young part that was sharing how lonely I was as a kid. And as soon as I realized it wasn't this adult me experience, it was a kid me experience, then I could be really sweet to go. Oh, yeah, that's so hard, you know, and it became a really beautiful experience. One. Again, when I thought it was just me as this adult, it's like, what do I do to change this to kind of go away from it? Right? Once you realize it's your young experience, and you can just go, yeah, that's so hard. Yeah. And it's, and it, it feels so soothing to hear that from yourself, right? To hear that from your adult self to Yeah. And I think we can be a lot more patient when we view it as a younger version of herself, you know, as opposed to, as you said, I think earlier, just, you know, I shouldn't be feeling this. I'm an adult, I should have all this together by now. Right. So I know that at some point in your journey, you also started using psychedelics to help you in terms of uncovering, I guess, some of this pain. So tell me about those experiences. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, as you were talking about losing the identities, I think that's another part that was so rich for me, I just happened upon psychedelics. I, my mother was a drug addict. So I didn't choose struggled with addiction. So I didn't ever want to do drugs, like it was very much like not in my world. But I started creating, I was approached to create a business plan for this educational institution that trains psychedelic guides. So I just got to expose a teeny bit through that experience. And when my co parent moved out of the house, there was a life coach who said that I might consider psychedelic healing as part of my journey. So I paired up with a guide, and she just was brilliant. You know, she's trained in all the Western stuff also, but she just was she was kind of had the whole landscape covered. And we started with MDMA. And the idea is that you start with MDMA, which helps bring up ego level trauma, basically, MDMA helps lower the fear response so that you can go toward these emotions that might feel too scary, otherwise. And so you can go approach some of your ego level trauma and start to work with it with the medicine. And again, I had this guide there with me to help support me as well. And I had done a lot of work with my ego level trauma, not that I was done, but I had nothing surprising came up during that session. So we moved on to psilocybin about a month later. And psilocybin, you know, my MDMA experience was really just blissful. And looking back, I think it was giving me just a glimpse of what my baseline state is underneath all this pain, if I can let go of this pain, then I can be in a really deeply peaceful place, which is how people kind of described, you know, in spirituality, like just being in this really deep relaxation. And then for psilocybin, I thought it would be another beautiful experience different, I'm sure it'd be different, but also beautiful. And it was really hard. And I immediately went into the underworld. And there were gremlins dancing with my mom's teeth, it was just like, super uncomfortable. And they barked at me, they said, you have more work to do. And I was so stunned, because I had done all this work for years in therapy. And then I was doing this grief work before that. But they the message was, you have so much more grief to unpack. And so it's really disheartened by that journey. But also, it's was, it's what's true. So I started kind of going toward grief, anytime I felt anything, I would clear my plate and try to just sit with it. And what would happen afterward is that, you know, colors were more vibrant, like the trees came alive to me, my experience in life became more beautiful, every time I did a big grief session. And frankly, again, coming back to this book, at some point, I was in the midst of very heavy grief. And then I woke up one day, and one of the chapters just came out of me. And so I've had this experience over and over the more I go toward my grief. And, you know, I do think that that journey really set the stage for this whole thing, which is go toward your pain. Stop avoid, you know, like you have stuff to unpack in it, and it's time to do that. So I did a couple psilocybin journeys, and they were all really uncomfortable and dark. Some people have everyone has different experience. And so some people have these really beautiful light experiences in mind, we're not. So my guide ultimately said, I might try ayahuasca. And that's, that's what I did next. And I did that for on and off for maybe two. Yeah, two years, I guess. And that was the deepest relationship I developed was with ayahuasca. Okay, so the psilocybin, you know, the thing is, for me, I've talked to people who have done psychedelics for, and we're not talking about recreational stuff here. We're just making very clear people are talking about you had a guide, and you're doing this with a purpose to work on yourself and your traumas or your grief. But I'm the kind of person, I'm a very fearful person. So I was talking to a friend of mine, and I said, I'd be scared of a panic attack. And she she'd done ayahuasca. She goes, Oh, I did, but then she did it again. So the thing I when I listened to your book, as you sent me the audio of it, I was like, Wow, you really leaned into what most of us would turn away from. And if I had a bad, you know, bad experience, I'd be like, I'm not doing that again. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, because that, you know, they can call them bad trips or whatever. I do think I do think that's where having having the right setting where you feel safe, I had my guide was critical. But also, you know, the journey itself with psilocybin was so dark for me, but the aftermath, you know, so you take you do these psychedelics, and then you integrate what you learned. And so much of the time, you have no clue what it's about. During or right after, sometimes you get a sense for things, but most of the time for me, I have no clue what it means. And then you just it just unfolds, your your brain is rewired, and things start to change in the come in the weeks and months afterward. And, and then the integration of it, my life was changing, you know, who I was was changing. And I also think there was, you know, an element of all of it where I wasn't spiritual at all before any of this. And I think part of that probably was my mom's death where it's like, what, what's the point of any of this? This sucks. So I think that the psychedelics helped me start to see some of the spiritual connection. And, and my life was changing. So as difficult as it was, even if I hadn't tried ayahuasca, I think I would still have done more psilocybin, because it was so impactful on my life. You know, the lessons I learned were so profound. Yeah. So, yeah, that's great. It's great that you know, you get you did that integration. And you mentioned you weren't spiritual before. So I'd like to talk about that. But I was thinking about like people that have what they call negative ND ease or hellish ND ease. They after they integrate the experience after they get over the fear, they realize this is what I needed, you know, so what we call negative is not necessarily bad. It may be what you need at the time, and you have to lean into it, as you said, and integrate it. Right? Yeah. And that's what the, you know, and I can't, I can't speak for anyone's experience, but mine, but they say that the medicine shows you what you need to see. And so for the people who get these really super fun psilocybin journeys, good for them. I, you know, what I needed to see was my pain, because ultimately, that let me acknowledge it and release it. And then my way of being in the world is, is, you know, dramatically different. I will say I did have one psilocybin journey that was super joyful. And the integration of that was actually the hardest for me, because I went from the super joyful, you know, place to back back to being human and go, Well, what do I do with that? So it having the pain with the medicine actually was quite then it's like, okay, you come back to earth, you get, you get some relief. But also you did, it's like you did the hard work in the journey with the medicine. There's some there's a great gift to being able to do that. Yeah, that well, it reminds us I was interviewing PMA chatwater is a near death expert. And she was saying she was, I guess, in a room and people were sharing their experiences. And one had a health experience and said it was like the best thing that ever happened. And the other one had like a heavenly experience and had a really difficult time integrating it. Because of just like you said, now this compared to that was just like, why am I even still here? Yeah, how do I find that here? What's the point? What's the point? I mean, I was I was, it didn't last long. But there was an immediate depression after the journey. So your your spirituality, when did that start to develop? And how? Um, you know, I didn't, I didn't label what the voice in the woods was, I think, on some level, I was aware that it could be something beyond me. I mean, it was in the sense that it wasn't my brain, right? It's not like I was thinking through things and thought, gosh, if I add all this up, my life's tragedy, right? It was as it was a spontaneous, you know, from something else, something besides my brain told me that my life was a tragedy. But I think it was really that first MDMA journey where I just saw there. Again, it's not something that I can describe. They talk about how these journeys are ineffable that you can't. They're not words for it. But there was something in me that goes, Oh, I am a spiritual being, you know, like there, there is more to this. And even sometimes in the ayahuasca ceremonies, in a really scary way, like, it's like, I was in this room. And I was high on the medicine. And then it was like, the curtain was being pulled back, like I would, I would see the room, but then I saw, you know, the kind of human perspective of it being pulled away. And it was terrifying to me. Ultimately, I didn't, I didn't stay in that place. But I think I kept having experiences like that with these psychedelics that showed me, you know, one time during this psilocybin journey, I talked with my mom and not in human form, you know, it's kind of like a spirit, knowledge transfer. But I just, you know, that's what those psychedelics do. They give you, they gave me a glimpse into what it what reality is. And then you go into your back into your human life and find that again on your own. Yeah. So the ayahuasca, what was so we talked about the MDMA and psilocybin was ayahuasca like for you? ayahuasca. And, you know, I ultimately did, I think 13 ceremonies of ayahuasca, and everyone was different, many of them, though, like I would go in and just cry grief for hours. So I would just, you know, without without a lot of setup, it's just like, I would all of a sudden be sad about my marriage, like, you know, two years after my co parent moved out of the house, I cried for hours about I went in, I went in with an intention about something else. And then I cried for hours about my ex husband. So, you know, kind of like, there are there are times where you grieve like that there are times where your body just kind of goes away. And you're, you're in the geometric landscapes and visions. There are times that are just utterly blissful. There are times where my body was in an incredible amount of pain. I mean, just kind of like the, when there were times where I just talked with the medicine, and I would say I would, it was like, I had just a therapist right here, who knew everything about the world. And I would just get this, I would say stuff. And she would say, No, do this instead, or you know, like, she would tell me to take space from certain relationships. Or one time I said, I thought about my sister and I said, I should send her healing energy. And Mother Aya that the medicine we call her Mother Aya. She said, No, keep that for yourself. And it's just kind of like these really gentle conversations that ultimately had this this huge impact on me where I would go kind of try to understand what what she was telling me. But it was like, um, I mean, the the chapter in my book about ayahuasca is called a tapestry of letting go, it just feels like every time was another conversation with the medicine in whatever form, where she would just help me set things down and bring my energy back to me and let things go over and over and over. And the grieving was that the grieving was, let's go look at this moment, this moment that you didn't know was so tender, let's go look at that moment. And then I got to feel the tenderness of that moment. And then I could let it go. Otherwise, it's, you know, that I, my vision of this is that it's stored in my body somewhere, this density, this grief. And when I can go acknowledge it, then it gets to move through. And if I open myself, self up by letting go of this grief, then I get to be a channel for love. And that's been just quite a beautiful thing. It's interesting, what you just said reminded me of something I just heard recently, because we've all heard the pain is stored in the body, and the body keeps the score and stuff like that. And I heard someone a couple weeks ago, and I was listening to a podcast. And it said, we have to metabolize the emotions or metabolize the grief. I really liked I like that word, for some reason, it made sense to me. Because it does, it's there, and it's stuck. And we have to, we have to work with it and transform it and let it go. So that the energy that we have can flow again. And I think so many of us, and again, doing the work that I do, so many of us just don't want to face it, we just want to keep it buried, or not even acknowledge the fact that it even exists. Right. And so understandably, because it's really painful. I mean, I think what I find so heartening, though, is that there's kind of like the deep dive, you can have a crisis, you can have a rock bottom moment, like hearing your life's a tragedy or illness, or all these things that can say, it's time to look at this, and, and you're going to do it, because there's nothing else to do. But if you're not in that rock bottom place, there's also the like, I get to acknowledge, even saying, I don't want to look at my pain. Just being with that, like that's another, that's a feeling, that's a fear, whatever that is, but you can go, yeah, I don't want to look at my pain. Like just having that acknowledgement of that initial emotion is a sweet thing that we can do to ourselves that will let something start to move. And then, and then that can lead to the next step. I mean, it's like, it doesn't have to be okay, now I have to go do all this, if you want to, if you're motivated to amazing, because really, for me, it was deep dive, both internal work and with a psychedelics where my life changed dramatically in a short period of time, because I was willing to do that. But even if somebody is not ready to do that, that's okay, then you can say I'm not ready to do that. Just having that conversation with yourself is a meaningful conversation versus not knowing it's there versus you know, like if you're totally unaware that it's stuck, it's going to stay stuck, you're going to have these patterns in your life that are frustrating and painful and that keep perpetuating. But if you say, I know, there's stuff I want to, I know, there's stuff I need to look at, and I'm not ready to look at it. Just having that awareness is is a great place to start. Or I'm, I want to do this, but I'm really scared. Or Okay, for me, it's like taking coping mechanisms off the table, can I for 10 minutes? I mean, maybe, maybe a day, maybe a week, but could have for 10 minutes not look at my phone, could I for a week, you know, not have sugar, whatever the thing is, we can start to make these things, these steps incrementally without feeling like the whole thing, because it's, it's overwhelming. I mean, it took me years to wake up to my pain, because I had so much. And I couldn't do it all at once. I had to take it moment by moment when I was ready. Yeah. So the the coping mechanism, as you mentioned, so talk about that a little bit more. So what do we want to do as far as taking those off the table? For me, what happens is, you know, I'm, if I'm really annoyed, or really, like, if I have, I feel like there's kind of a different, there's different levels of pain, some are some you can kind of tolerate, and you tolerate every day. And others are so scary or big that you kind of have to stop everything and deal with them. For me, I can get into these, like, I'm in these habits that I'm really stuck in a rut kind of thing. And what I do is if I want to stop feeling stuck somewhere, I, I know that when I'm watching screens, when I'm eating sugar, when I'm, you know, taking in a lot of noise from the outside world, I know that I'm keeping myself from something. So when my sugar cravings are high, which they've been lately, I'm like, Okay, I know, I'm avoiding something. And that's okay. Like, I don't, I don't need to say it was, it's bad to do that. I just want to be aware that I'm avoiding something when my cravings are going up, and I'm, and I'm doing more of that kind of activity. So when I'm ready, when I say, Okay, I'm tired of, I'm tired of being in this state, then I will say, Okay, let's do a week where I cut out, you know, big flavors and sugar, that kind of thing, where I cut out screens, where I cut out social media, if you're on social media, even social interactions, I mean, things like that, where it's like, can we can we find quiet in our lives? And that's when, because when I have a craving, it's something in me saying, I want, I'm trying to get your attention. And I'm saying, I'm not going to do that. I'm gonna go have this chocolate bar. Yeah. So if I'm ready to start hearing the messages that are trying to get through to me, then I can not have that chocolate bar. And I can just sit there and see what comes up. And frankly, for me, there's a lot of like, again, just being sweet to that first emotion, emotion, which is like, I don't want to take the coping mechanisms off the table, screw you, I don't want to do this, you know. So there's kind of like being sweet to that part. Because there's all these different, we have all these different pieces of us that are trying to get our attention. And when we fill ourselves up with busyness, and flavors, and noise, and all that, then it's really hard for these voices to get through. Yeah, I love what you said there. It's really about awareness. I mean, because sometimes we we need we have coping mechanism for mechanism for a reason. So sometimes we need those things. But to to get curious and say, Why am I doing this? What am what is it that I'm avoiding? At least to acknowledge that it's that it's there, that there's something that that we that we need to address at some point, and then be to be able to come around to it when we're ready to address it. You know, because sometimes grief can frankly, be overwhelming, you know, like, absolutely tragic loss of your mother, you know, something like that, you know, the coping mechanisms are there to protect us. And even these internal family systems, we all these these parts that we have, you know, they're people would be very careful, they're not our enemies, they're not there to harm us, they're there to protect us. And but they're, they're misguided, they're overused, you know, ever. So this idea, I love the idea. And I don't again heard this pretty recently, because I'd heard something before called positive intelligence, we talked about the various parts of ourselves, and we talk about sages and saboteurs, which is really different language for the same thing. But in that system, they're more like adversaries. Like internal family systems are like they're parts of us that are just need some guidance and need some love. Right? Right. Yeah, I can. It's a very sweet thing. Very gentle, I think. And you know, I was talking with a podcast host months ago, and she was saying how she was like, Why can't I get this right. And then after she read my book, she was like, Oh, it's this part, it's the teenage part of me that felt like I had to fight to get me heard or whatever it was like. And so as soon as she realized it was her younger version, then then she's not mad at it. She's sweet to it, right? And once you're sweet to it, then that then that part actually feels acknowledged. And then they probably don't need you to do the thing anymore. Right? It's kind of like, as soon as you can turn it from there being your adversary to being a really well intended, innocent piece of you, then, then it shifts you toward them, and then what they need changes because they've been acknowledged. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I know, also, we talked about your consulting business a little bit. So you made a career change after this happens. Well, I kept the consulting business for a good long while. I mean, but kind of with less passion, my heart stopped being in it. And then this book took up all my time. And I and I did formally shut down the consulting practice. So I'm really in a place right now of sharing the book. And, you know, we go through these periods of deep grounding. And so I've been doing a ton of grief work just in this last this last summer and fall, I did so much grief work. And I'm very aware that I was grounding I was anchoring down so that the next creative phase can come but I'm just kind of in that in that void quiet space right now and trying to be really appreciative of the grounding and also really honoring the mystery, you know, I have this history of needing to know what's coming next, controlling it of, you know, having the plan. And so it's very new, a new practice for me to really say, I don't have to have the plan. Yeah, just wake up today, I can sink into my body and I'll be guided. It's pretty well, I just I wrote a post for substack earlier this morning. And it was a guest I had been speaking with it was about purpose. And people say my purpose, I didn't, the post was basically, we look at purpose, like it should be a roadmap, we want to know exactly where we're going, when we're going to get there. And I remember talking to him, and he does all those big, like life lesson stuff. And I asked him about purpose. He goes, my purpose right now, Brian is to sit here and have a conversation with you. And he's like, this, this is my purpose. And I think a lot of us think about purpose, like it's that big long term thing. And there is a certain amount of trust that has to come that like, we're not going to necessarily get that information, you know, right now and to just sit with that. So I love you talk about this. You know, you're in a period of time of grounding. And that's okay. Being okay with that is a really important thing, I think. Yeah, yeah. And frankly, that's when the that's when the magic I mean, for me, this is all about like, life feels magical in a way that it didn't before I had this awakening. And there's this magic that can happen when you don't take control, right? When you let that go when you trust things to move through you. And this can happen both kind of in the time and what I'm here to do. And there's also can happen with, you know, from the financial perspective of like, if I don't plan every single thing, will I die? And I think on some level, you know, there is kind of a willingness to let everything go. You almost have to be willing to let everything go badly, like to let to let the worst be true to then actually be open to everything going in this beautiful kind of divine way. It's all greater than my knowing. And I, you know, when I'm in these deep periods of grief, I'm very clear to me that that grieving part of me says, Don't you go make light of this later, like, this is so painful. And I know that my great all I know is my grief. And there's so much out in the world. So for me to speak about anything, as if I know the truth, as if there is a way, you know, it's just kind of like, I feel like I was in this last period of so much, like, I have to have so much reverence for what people are experiencing that is beyond my capacity to understand. And the mystery of life, you know, I just think from the self help perspective, it's like, I want to go find the way to happiness. And if you follow these three keys, you'll get there kind of stuff. And it's like, I don't know, there's so much bigger than that. There's so much more beautiful, there's so much more pain, you know, so for me, the best practice seems to be to just surrender to what's bigger than me and to empty myself out as much as I can, so that I can let love flow through me. Yeah. Now I can imagine someone thinking, Okay, well, this sounds like a painful and exhausting process. And is it ever going to be over? You know, I know, some people say, I don't want to start, I don't want to start deal with my grief or my pain, because that sounds like too much work. And, and when do I get to the end? So what, how would you address that? You know, I started doing it, because it was time to do it. So I kind of on some level, I get it, you know, I wasn't willing to look at it until I had to face the reality of my situation. And so, you know, there's some book I read years ago, I don't know, I forget which one it was. But it was someone talking to her mentor about why do I keep doing these things? And he's in the mentor said, because it doesn't hurt enough. You know, like, when you heard enough, you're gonna do this work, because there's nothing else to do. You're at the end, and you've got to do it. And so I mean, I think there's just an element of like, you know, again, not not to tell anyone else what to do, we're all going to be guided to do this when we're ready. And having said that, on my journey, I have discovered I'm a singer and a writer and a dancer in my way of being in the world, you know, I'm just, I'm in my body and boundaries flow naturally and love flows. I can be so much more of service now than I could before before I was depleted. And you know, really wasn't living a life worth living. And now I am and being so filled myself means love just pours through me to other people. So there's like, absolutely. In that way, there is a destination you you open up. I mean, we do these ayahuasca ceremonies, and I'll be there with someone who's it's their first ceremony, and then I'll see them a few ceremonies later. And the openness that happens with these people who have now, you know, decided to look at the stuff they they flower in a way they blossom in a way that is extraordinary to see. So I felt that myself and I see it around me as well. So from my perspective, there's no other path that I would want to take from someone else perspective, I understand has the hesitation because what I think is we can understand the pain, we know a little taste of pain, we know what we're trying to avoid. But what I couldn't have understood five years ago is how beautiful it is. And so it's hard to make that choice to move forward with this. If you don't really know what that beauty feels like and looks like. Yeah, thank you that I think that was really good transition that because we've talked so much about the pain, and then you just you talked about the beauty. I mean, what's what's the payoff? What's the reason why we do this? And we're not seeking pain, we're not going out to have experiences to create pain. But we're acknowledging that the pain is there. And as we talked about earlier, the pain is it's already there. It's already it's already in our bodies. It's already in our psyches. It's already it's already there. What you're talking about is like, facing that acknowledging it, working with that, and transforming it into the beauty that you've been able to experience. Yeah, it's, it's been pretty incredible. And like you said, I mean, I think it surprises me so much. I think, you know, parts of us, like I said, I thought I lost my mom, but really, I lost myself. And I think so many of us don't know who we are, have lost ourselves to this kind of being shut off from our bodies and from our pain. And you don't know how much you're missing yourself, you know, for so long. Because I was out of my body, I looked everywhere else for the answer. Yeah. And I wanted somebody, somebody else like I needed the right partner, the right friends, the right community, I needed these external pieces to make me feel good. But the truth was that that was never going to be enough. I was always going to need more from an external perspective, because what I was missing was not that I was missing me. And so, you know, I was never going to be happy in that context. And I think this voice in the woods was saying, finally, like, are you done being unhappy? You can choose something else. I just, frankly, I didn't feel like you could choose something else. I was doing all the stuff that I thought you could do. I was doing therapy, I was going to workshops, and I was going to retreats and reading all the books. And very diligently, you know, I was willing to do all that as well as I could. And it and it was, but it was this external picture. And again, Mother, I when I said I'd send my sister healing energy, she said, No, keep that for yourself. Because I mean, I have more to do here. Like I don't need to send any love outward. Once I'm filled with my own love, love will just naturally flow to other people. Yeah, that's a great that's a great way of putting it. I love that. So do you still do the psychedelics? You mentioned you're doing I will ask a ceremonies watching other people. Are you still doing them? I am. I'm on a little bit of a break. Maybe forever. Maybe not. I went in February. And Mother Aya told me that I didn't need to come back. And her message was, as long as you look out, so just what we were talking about, as long as you look outside yourself, you'll never know all of who you are. And so even with psychedelics, I realized I'm looking to Mother Aya for the answer, instead of going into my body and finding the wisdom there, because that's what psychedelics do is they, they take you to your own wisdom. Yeah. But I still very much was like, I have a problem in my life. I can't wait to go work on it with Mother Aya. Yeah. And what I learned from her in February is still integrating that message is that I can do that. I can do it now by myself. Like I learned it from the medicines, how to go find the pain, how to be loving to the pain, you know how to how to release these things. So I don't know if it's a forever thing. Or if it's, you know, the funny thing about the psychedelics is they're also very trickster, like she'll say something. And I'll think it's this over here. And she might be joking. And she really just said it to get a to like, help me see what my reaction was. Because when I was, when she told me not to come back, I was so sad. I felt abandoned by her. So here I am being abandoned again by a mother. Yeah. So I'm aware that it may not be that I'm done forever. But it has been a time of really owning my capacity to do the stuff without the medicine. And to me, that's a very heartening message that, you know, I went to, I went to learn how to do this stuff not to be fixed by the medicines, but to be taught by the medicines. And now I can take that learning and apply it myself. Yeah, I think the medicines are very interesting. I've looked into a little bit, you know, because I would say, you know, a Western point of view, but they change your brain chemistry, and you just have experiences in your brain. I think of them more as like lowering the veil, or allowing our brains are moving the filter, and allowing us to see that reality. And there's some controversy, even in the spiritual world, but some people say, well, you shouldn't use, you know, artificial means you should get there on your own. But then some of us meditate for decades, and we never we never reach those types of realities. So yeah, I think it's going to be individual for everybody to decide whether that's for them or not. And it's, you know, it's actually my other, my other ayahuasca mindset, it's time for you to, to do this on your own. Now that you've gotten this, you know, the foundation and the realizations that you've gotten from the medicines, so right, right. And just for me, it's, again, this perpetual looking outside myself. I mean, it's like, you get so much better at things over time, but there's still layers for me to release to go, okay, I'm still wanting someone to validate me, I'm still wanting someone to tell me I'm okay. You know, I can find that in myself. Yeah. So the voice that spoke to you in the woods, you know, those years ago, what do you think the voice would say to you today? I'm doing great. I mean, again, I think that that voice now I think that voice was my was my body and I and I and I thought about that lots where like, what would the voice say today would not say my life would be a tragedy. I mean, the the transformation that's occurred in my own experiences is incredible, but also just how I every relationship every single relationship I have is has transformed because of my transformation. And, you know, I show up for people in ways that I never could have shown up before. Before I showed up, I might actually it's interesting because I might be doing the exact same thing, like showing up for somebody who's who needs help. But before I would have been doing it because I was I should and I'm obligated to and they need me and I'd be totally depleted afterward. And now I'll show up and do that exact same thing. And I'm just filled to the brim with love. And I don't need anything, anything in return. So like there are these relationships where even maybe we've had painful exchanges in the past. And I don't need the other person to do anything like I don't need their sorry, I don't need to, I don't need them for my healing. And so I can just show up and be loving. And it's kind of like, crazy to me how how different it is. But I'm, I've changed the trajectory for my for me and my son. And the rest of my family kind of looks at me with wide eyes coming up what's happened. But it's really beautiful, you know, like things were before I would have been really concerned about boundaries, or how, you know, am I getting compensated for something or whatever it is. And now I'm just like, I'm good. I don't like I, and it's not, I take such good care of myself is part of that, right? Like I'm very much if I want to be loving to other people, I know first, if I'm if I don't feel very loving toward others, I know that means I need to love myself more. And so this is very much premised on the on the, you know, the idea that I'm taking good care of myself, and then I can show up for others, because I'm so resourced. Yeah. I like what you said there, but you could do the same thing with different motivations. And it has a completely different meaning. I think that's the thing that's really, really important. You know, because sometimes people will think, well, self care means being selfish and not doing things for other people. But it just means not doing things for other people out of being needy, or needing for their, you know, for their approval or their praise, you're doing it now, because you have more of an abundance of what's flowing out of you. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty surprising. And I think that's the other piece too, it's kind of like, I first had the awakening, and then it's like, Okay, what huge things am I going to go do in my life? Now I can change the world. And then, and then you settle into it a little bit. And it's like, Oh, I can do the same things. You know, like, I was, you know, I went to the grocery store before, I'll go to the grocery store now, like I wish someone a happy birthday before I wish them a happy birthday now. But the energy of those of all of my experiences is what's changed. It's my, my doing the same ordinary things feels everything can feel sacred and extraordinary. Yeah, well, that gets back to the purpose thing. I think we talked about earlier, because again, I think people sometimes think of purpose, like the big things, I'm supposed to do this thing, I'm supposed to do that thing. And the older I get, the more I think our purpose is, is to be authentic, and to get to know ourselves, you know, really, that internal work that we do the internal work that you've done, and that you're showing one way that other people can start to approach that, you know, and the biggest thing being getting away from that fear and facing the pain. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, getting away the fear from the fear, or just really sitting with the fear, fear is a really hard thing to sit with, but just letting it all flow through. I mean, I think that's the other pieces that once you face your pain, you realize how incredibly strong you are. And that's so cool, because I've always felt so weak, and so, you know, fragile. And so now I'm, I've gone through so much that anything can happen in my life, and it's okay. Yeah, that's such a different place before it was like, I needed all the things to line up so that I was okay. Yeah, yeah. Well, I, you know, I could tell from from reading your book, it's like, you know, this is a person who's really, you know, lean into this, right? Who is really, I mean, I see you as very bold and very not fearless, because we all have fear. But But to say, I'm going to face my fear, I'm going to face my pain, I'm going to, I'm going to lean into this. And I love in your book about how you're just like, you're very, you're very open, you're very raw about like, you know, your emotions and what's happened to you. And you're really putting yourself out there. And I can tell it's in service to other people, you want to help other people. Yeah, I do. And, and I'm so, you know, as I've realized how incredible I am, I realized how incredible every individual is. So there's kind of this element of, I think it was. And I think it was a data gene that says, you know, when you stop helping other people, you'll be their greatest help, something like that, where it's like, if I can just take care of myself and show up with this authenticity, with this love flowing from me, other people, it's, it's just like we're waking each other up, right? So somebody else will see that and then something will spark in them. It's less, it's not that I'm helping anybody. It's that they're helping themselves with what we're sharing, right? Yeah, yeah. So going forward in your life, we talked, we talked a little bit earlier about your spirituality, how it's changed and developed. So where do you see yourself now? What do you see yourself in five or 10 years? Well, that would be fun. A little preview. I have no clue. Because it's like, where do I see myself tomorrow? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think, you know, again, this, this last year has been a lot about letting go of the need to understand and that was part of one of my more recent ceremonies with with ayahuasca was Mother Aya showed me this huge vision. And I was like, I don't understand how I can do that. Like, it's kind of this vision for me moving forward. And it was like, I can't, my brain couldn't get it. I was so overwhelmed. I was sitting there with a blanket over my head, like rocking back and forth like a mental patient. And, and so like, you have to show me how I'm going to be able to handle that. And she said, turn off your brain. And my brain is really reluctant to follow those instructions. But the more I'm becoming more practiced at letting my brain be silent. And that's when things can move. It's like, if, again, becoming an empty vessel so that the the loving energy can move through me. And that's all I'm here to do. Yeah, I think it's a great answer. And I actually I love your answer. Because again, Tom saw some people go to well, I'm going to be in this job, or I'm going to be there. And it's not a it's not about that. It's about really becoming more of your authentic self. So I love your answer. Thank you for that. So, Alexis, we're coming to the end of our time, remind people of the name of your book, where they can get it and if people can reach out to you how they can reach you. So this it's pain is a portal to beauty. And it's right now it's everywhere online. So anywhere you search for it by Alexis Lee, and my website is alexislee.com. And there's a contact form there, I would love to hear from anybody. And frankly, right now we're doing work with book clubs and anybody who wants a copy, I'll send you one just really. And this was this book was a gift that came to me and moved through me. And I'm grateful to take it out to the world. Oh, that's very generous. And by the way, for people that are listening, not watching is Lee le igh. And Alexis, again, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for what you put out into the world. I know it's gonna help a lot of people. This has been a fun conversation. Brian, thanks for having me. All right. Have a good morning. Bye. grief doesn't follow stages, timelines or rules. And if you've ever wondered, Am I doing this right? You're not alone. That's why I created the grief check in. It's not a test. There are no right or wrong answers. It's simply a gentle way to understand how grief may be showing up for you right now. In just a few minutes, you'll gain clarity and language for what you're experiencing without judgment labels or pressure to move on. If you're wondering where you are in grief, this is a safe place to look. Go to grief to growth.com slash check in. That's grief numeral to growth.com slash check in