Supporting a Grieving Spouse with Compassion: A Conversation with Samina Bari | EP 464

In today’s powerful episode of Grief 2 Growth, Brian sits down with Samina Bari — author of Don’t Call Me Widow and host of the Afterlife podcast — for a raw and insightful look at spousal loss, solo parenting, grief brain, and the quiet ways we can show up for those who are hurting most.

Samina lost her husband suddenly in 2023. What followed was a journey through shock, trauma, identity loss, and rebuilding life as a solo parent of twins. Her honesty brings comfort, clarity, and guidance to anyone walking beside someone who’s grieving — or navigating grief themselves.

🔑 In This Episode You’ll Discover

• What “grief brain” really feels like and why it affects memory, decisions, and daily functioning
• Why year two can feel harder than year one
• How solo parenting is different from single parenting
• Why the word “widow” is so emotionally charged — and why Samina rejects it
• How children grieve and what they need most
• What actually helps someone grieving (and what makes things worse)
• The unseen emotional and logistical weight after a spouse dies
• Why saying the loved one’s name matters more than you think
• How friends can become the lifeline a grieving person depends on
  
  

🌟 About Samina Bari

Website: https://saminabari.com

Books:

• I Can, I Will, and I Did
• Don’t Call Me Widow
  Podcast: Afterlife (available on all major platforms)

Samina blends lived experience with heartfelt advocacy, helping others understand the realities of spousal grief in a culture that’s deeply uncomfortable with loss.

🧠 Listener Takeaways

• Small acts of kindness matter far more than big gestures
• Children are not naturally resilient — they need support
• Grief changes identity, timelines, and the imagined future
• Community support can literally hold a grieving person together
• It’s never too late to reach out to someone who’s hurting
  
  

Visit the Grief 2 Growth store for FREE items as well as other tools to help you along your journey:

• Guided Meditations
• My book GEMS of Healing (signed copy)
• My Oracle deck to help you connect with your loved ones
• Mini-courses
• Mini-guides
  
  

Check it out at https://grief2growth.com/store

I'm excited to announce a new resource I'm very proud of. This guide outlines the four daily practices I discovered on my grief journey. These techniques have helped dozens of my clients. Get it free today.

GEMS- 4 Steps To Go From Grief To Joy

This deck is a labor of love. It's a 44 card oracle deck that's about connecting you to your loved one in spirit. The deck comes with a companion digital guide that gives you an affirmation, a reflection, and an activity for the day.

Check it out at https://stan.store/grief2growth/p/oracle-deck

Transcript

0:51

Close your eyes and imagine. What if the things in life that caused us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, are challenges. Challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried, but what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth, and I am your host, Brian Smith. I'm Brian Smith and welcome to Grief to Growth, where we explore life's toughest challenges and life's biggest questions. Who we are, why we're here, and where we go from here. And whether you're joining us for the first time or you're a longtime listener, I'm glad you're here today. Today's conversation is one I would believe will deeply resonate with anyone who has faced or who isn't facing the unimaginable, the loss of a spouse, especially the sudden loss of a spouse. My guest is Samina Barry. She's an inspiring leader, an author, and a podcast host who transformed profound personal grief and a purposeful advocacy. After losing her husband in a tragic accident in 2023, Samina was struck by how uncomfortable and unprepared our culture is when it comes to grief, especially the grief of a surviving spouse. Samina is the host of the podcast Afterlife and the author of the best-selling book I Can, I Will, and I Did, Lessons on Life, Love, and Leadership. And her new book is called Don't Call Me Widow. It's a powerful practical guide for those wanting to support grieving spouses, not with abstract advice, but with insight, grounded in raw, lived experience. In today's episode, Samina shares how grief brain affects decision-making and memory, the overlooked emotional logistical weight of solo parenting after spousal loss, and why, despite what we might assume, the second year of grief can often be harder than the first. We'll also dive into the well-meaning but painful things that people often say and do instead of to truly support someone who's grieving. So whether you're grieving, supporting someone who is, or simply trying to understand grief better, this conversation, I believe, is going to be a must-listen. It's about love, loss, and resilience, and how we'll get all show up better for each other when life gets hard. And don't forget, after the episode, head over to my Substack at grief2growth.substack.com, where I'll be posting an article about the conversation, where you can join in the discussion, leave your thoughts, and connect with others walking the same path. And with that, I want to welcome to Grief2Growth, Samina Bari. Thank you, Brian. So nice to be here with you. Yeah, it's great to meet you. We started talking before, we started recording, and just the full disclosure for everybody, this is very timely for me. One of my best friends, Mike, passed away in April of this year. We're recording this beginning of December, and I'm navigating this thing with his wife going through his loss. So I want to thank you for being here today and sharing this really needed information. Thank you. Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's wonderful that you are helping to support her. And I know what she's going through. And I know how disruptive this type of a loss becomes to your sense of self. And to have people stand by you and support you with empathy and and grace is one of the greatest gifts you're able to give her. Yeah, well, as we get started, I like to talk about your husband first. So tell me about your husband. My husband, his name was Doug. He was amazing. I was madly in love with him. It was one of those love at first sight stories. And he was a Renaissance man. He was, gosh, he was a wonderful professional. He had a million different hobbies. He was a magnificent chef. He was an unbelievably devoted father. And he made me laugh all the time. And he just simply brought joy into my life, as well as to the lives of so many countless others. He was kind of the son you would want to have, the parent you would want, the friend you would want. And of course, the partner you would want in your life. He was really a remarkable person. Yeah, I understand he passed in twenty twenty three, which is pretty recent. I know a lot of times people when they haven't got through something like this, they don't realize those first couple of years or they seem to kind of go by really fast. So I understand it was a sudden passing. So without getting into as much details you'd like to tell me what happened. Yeah, you know, my my girls, we had twin girls and they were had just turned seven years old. They were on spring break. We had just gone away and life was good. We were all very happy and fortunate. And he and I had just been talking about, you know, how that they were getting older. We could perhaps plan a trip. Just the two of us finally, you know, after after a long time and by chance, our anniversary, our wedding anniversary was coming up at that May and all was well. We were home for dinner. He went out for a little bit to see some friends and, you know, he didn't make it home. And, you know, it just was such a it was such a jarring event. It was I remember being in shock. I remember shaking uncontrollably. I was in the hospital with him, so I was able to say goodbye. He wasn't conscious and my children weren't. And I just remember it felt like I was outside of myself. I wasn't quite in my own body because it was sudden it was an out of order death. He was not ill. There was no time to grieve. There was no time to prepare. And it really the shock was what had taken over. And I was diagnosed with traumatic post-traumatic a shock disorder, stress disorder, because it was something that had just, you know, my mind couldn't function. It wasn't able to reconcile what was going on. And that's actually why I talk about grief brain, grief block. That is real. That is the body's way of trying to protect us and trying to make sense of something that doesn't make sense. And in those moments, I, you know, I can't tell you everything I did. I know I functioned somehow. Friends told me I was able to have conversations. I can't recall a single conversation other than the conversation I had with my my children when I told them eventually. And even then, it's a blur. That first year is just, you know, it's it's very difficult to fathom, to understand what's happening because your your reality is gone. Yeah, without without warning, you know, it's it's you've lost yourself. You've lost your person. You've lost your world. The earth kind of falls out from under your feet. Yeah. And we and we talked a little bit before we got started recording and know people want to compare grief and every grief is unique. You know, so I've lost a child and people say I don't I can't imagine what it's like to lose a child. So but tell me what it's like to lose a spouse, to lose your your your half of yourself, especially this this out of order thing as you described it. Yeah, you know, I think I'm so sorry for your loss. And, you know, yes, you should never compare losses because they are all different. But, you know, when you are when you have your partner, this is the the significant relationship that you have chosen. In your life, it's not bound by obligation, by blood. It is a choice. And when you find that right person, as I did with my husband, you're connected on almost a cellular level. I mean, you think we were together for 21 years, all of my adult life. So as we grow as people, we become the people who are going to be. But we do that because we have someone in our lives. So, for example, we compromise on some things. We ease up on others. We take on more of a role here or there. We could finish each other's thoughts. We we can, you know, kind of finish each other's sentences. And we build our life and our dreams together. And in that instant, it's all gone. And a part of you dies with that loss because who are we now? Who we were part of a relationship. We were a couple. We were a unit. We were a team. We were partners, confidants. We kept each other's secrets. We knew each other's vulnerabilities. We, you know, we comforted each other and we, you know, we created dreams and visions for our future. And then in an instant, it's gone. And, you know, what I was talking about with an out of order, Jeff, is so many people in an order in an attempt to empathize with me said, oh, I know how you're feeling. My mother just passed. She was my best friend. She was 96. And, you know, I'm sorry for that loss. But in life, you are so privileged to have been able to see your mother live the entire continuum of her lifespan. She was, you know, humans don't live longer than that. She raised a good adult. She perhaps saw children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. She's lived a life. And so that's to be expected. But to compare it to my loss, where I had, you know, a husband in the prime of his life raising twin young girls where we had another 30 years ahead of us. Right. That's an out of order death. It's an out of order death. It's traumatic when you don't have that chance to say goodbye. There was no warning. And not that I wish illness on anyone, but when someone is ill, there's a part of you that grieves that person while they're still breathing, while they're still there. And you have the chance to say all of the things in your heart and you know that you're able to send them off with dignity and with the love that you intended. And when it happens suddenly and tragically, you don't have that. You don't, you know, your mind is not functioning. You don't have those moments. You know, my children never got to say goodbye and they still cry about that. They still lament about that. And they will carry that for the rest of their lives. And all I could do in that moment of sheer and utter confusion and shock and panic and despair was all I could, all I could think of was I played, I played a video of my children's voices and held it up to my husband's ear so he could hear their voices. Whether or not he did, I don't know. I like to, I like to think that he could, I like to think that he could hear me and had some sort of presence. That's the only comfort I could give myself. And with your girls, I mean, so you had to tell them they weren't there. What, what was that like for you? And what was it like for you to have to carry that message to them? Oh, it's the, it's, it's something you never ever want to ever experience. My children, my husband on top of being so amazing had also decided that he loved being a dad so much after a decade of infertility that we had that he chose to stay home with the girls. And so he was the full time parent. And so their bond with him was far more close than it was with me because I worked, he allowed me to soar professionally and he held down the fort. So that was their primary parent. And all I could think of was they had been away that the day that he had passed away, I mean, that was pre-planned because he and I were having a lovely, you know, adult weekend to ourselves. We had planned to be, he had planned a babysitter, believe it or not. He had planned that for me. And I, the babysitter had them and I said, hold them for one more day. So they have one more day of happiness. And that's how I look at it because it's, everything is before and after. Exactly. Right. Everything is a before and after. And you know, there was a part of them that knew right away because when they walked into my house, they saw all of their aunties from all over the country and all different parts of their lives. Everyone had gathered at my house to support me and the girls. And so when they walked in and they saw, especially my, my dearest friend from New York had flown over right away. They knew something was wrong. And so when I sat them in their rooms and I told them that something terrible had happened, they knew, they knew, and it broke my heart. You know, one went into, Oh my God, he was my everything. Daddy was my everything. We know how that can't be true. And the other one, even though their twins went into a little bit of denial and problem solving mode, just in order to, you know, kind of figure out how to cope. And because he was a magnificent chef, he, she said, Mommy, you don't cook. We're going to starve. And it was seemingly like a lighthearted, silly thing to say, but she, with that comment, she recognized the gravity of the hole in our lives that we can't imagine without him. Yeah. And that's, and I appreciate you sharing this because I really want to help people understand, you know, from the outside, what the gravity, as you said, of this thing, because it changes literally everything in your life from the little, the big practical things down to the little things like, you know, who's going to cook and who's going to take care of us and help people understand because I, and I, I've learned this, as I mentioned, I'm going through this with my friend right now, like some of the practical things, you know, that we don't think about after someone passes, because you, you do assume certain things like financial things or bank accounts or houses and stuff like that. Did you have any difficulty with things like that? Oh, tremendous amount. Oh my gosh. That's probably one of the biggest things, you know, cause again, you're, you're, you know, you know, here's the thing we plan for death, right? We do the right things. We, we create a will, we create a trust. We have it all done. But when that moment happens, there's nothing rational to execute on. You're driven purely by emotions. And in my case, it was, uh, you know, lack of emotion or shock. It was confusion. It was all these other things. Um, and you know, that's just the half of it. I think, you know, really thinking through the fact that there is this void, it's not just in the practical, rational things, but it's also in the, you know, what else did the partner do to provide balance in that household? So, um, you know, I, again, I was supported by an amazing community and I called them my chosen family and I'm so proud of the, of the people who are in my life, they showed up and they picked me up off the floor and they just handled everything without making anything uncomfortable for any one. They let me talk. They let me sleep. They, you know, it was gently told me, brought me a cup of tea and asked me to take a sip. They didn't force anything on me. They took over figuring out who would pick up the children and how to care for the children, everybody took on a role. And I think that that was, you know, one of the biggest learnings for me. You know, we all react differently and everyone was in shock upon his passing because he was with a lot of my friends the night that he died. So they too were reeling from the disbelief. Um, but they leaned into what they were most comfortable with and they came together and just partnered. So I had people from different parts of my life who had never met before, but I would have heard of one another and they formed their own text chains. One who was, you know, superb at communications took on the task of writing an obituary, a draft for me to look at all of the things that I would have to do, uh, they took on. Another one took on all of the logistics of the memorial. Uh, another one took on, you know, making my social security appointment, figuring out what we wanted inscribed on the urn. Um, they all played a role and the others took on the child, you know, my children's support roles and they made sure the children were being attended to and talked to and comforted and fed and snuggled with. And you know, they had that they had safe people they could cry with. Um, and that they knew that it wasn't just all about mommy, but they were also there for them too. And that's a really important thing for anyone who's going through it with, with children. And it doesn't matter if your children are teens, don't ignore the children. I I've heard that too often because there is this terrible myth. It's a dangerous myth that children are resilient. And that is only stated by people who don't have a child or have never experienced a child in the midst of trauma and grief. Um, the children who experienced the loss of a parent at a young age are, are far more susceptible to anxiety, mental health issues, depression, suicidal ideations, um, if left untreated. And so, you know, that was one of the biggest things that weighed on me was not just, not just me, but all my poor babies, my poor babies, how are they going to do this? How are they going to be? Um, so, you know, it's just really kind of thinking through, uh, you know, what would you want? Like, you know, I think that with, with this type of a loss, it becomes so uncomfortable for people because they don't want to see it in themselves because, you know, even though we say, God forbid, I die, right? I mean, it is not God forbid it will happen, but you're confronted with the reality of it. And it's so shocking that I think we, you know, you freeze up or you don't know what to do or say, just do something, do it with intention, do it with kindness. Um, don't try to explain it away. Don't try to bring religion into it when it's not welcomed. Don't use platitudes. Um, just be there. Sit with us in the sadness and the silence. Um, you know, don't expect a conversation. Simple, simple gestures are the most powerful ones because it makes us feel like we're not completely alone, even though we feel very isolated in our, in our loss. Yeah. Well, let's talk about some of, um, some of the practical things. And you mentioned some of them that people can do because you know, we, when someone goes through something like this, we always say, well, call me if you need anything or let me know what I can do for you. Uh, and so I'm sure people said that to you. So what would you like as a grieving person? What's helpful? Yeah. You know, those two phrases were said to me and those are infuriating phrases and I know we're all used to it because in that moment you have just burned us with having to think about stuff to do, to tell you, right? Again, because it's so unfathomable because you really can't imagine what that's like because in a rat, in a rational state, of course. But remember as a society, we're not used to asking for help. And now we've got a grief addled brain and we can't think straight. We don't know if we've showered or eaten or slept. We don't know any of this. Um, so please don't ask that question, but just do something. So, you know, a, a couple of things that I mentioned, um, you know, uh, someone, you know, if their people are great with the food chains, right? Um, and they sign up and then done, you know, it's my obligation is done. Well, you know, how about portioning it all out when it's done, cleaning up the dishes, freezing, some labeling, some doing that work, thinking about the week, getting the mail, um, you know, taking the bills and figuring those things out, uh, freeze your loved ones credit is the first thing I always say too, because if you make an announcement, um, you know, there are so many scammers now. I mean, this whole world is, you know, full of nefarious, uh, you know, wrongdoers. Um, you know, do those, do those types of practical things, um, to drive the children to school, take the children to the park, give them a little bit of normalcy, because just the, just the act of taking a child and giving the adult room to grieve and breathe without the thought of their child is a gift to us because we don't have that because in our, in our minds, we are carrying a crushing mental burden of not just our grief and what are we going to do, but what, how are my children? Because you're reflecting and absorbing their grief as well as your own. So it's very, very heavy. Yeah. And when we, we talked before we got started, you talked about the loss of past kind of present and future. Can you frame that for people that are listening now? Yeah, you know, um, you know, I, it depends on, I guess, how long you've been with someone or, you know, the, the closeness of your relationship. But, you know, as I mentioned, I was with my husband for over 20 years, 21 years. Um, so that's my formative adult, you know, my adult life. So at this point, I have my memories before him, like teenage memories, you know, you kind of pick and choose your memories, the older you get. And so, so much of my past involved him, uh, whether he was directly involved or he facilitated something, but he was always in my past. He was part of my future. And we had dreams of what we would, you know, where our children would go to school or what we would do in retirement. And all of a sudden that's gone, you know, because you've got no one to share that memory with anymore. You've got no one to correct that memory. Did that really happen? Because time, you know, your mind plays tricks with you and time does you, and your memories do fade a little bit, but now you've got no one to check them with. You've got no one to validate that you had that past and your present, you know, every day is just surviving and future. I mean, I'm two and a half years out, but I can't picture my future. Still there's no future for me. I can get to my, what my children will look like. I think I can think about the grades in school, but I have no future. I have no vision for myself because it took my dreams away. Yeah. And help people, you know, understand that, you know, that, that idea, because you're right. You've got this idea and we never know, what's going to happen in the future. We all, but we, but we think we do. We have a vision for what's it like when that vision is just like God, like you can't see it. Yeah. You know, I, I, it's, I can't say it's scary because for me it's a new normal. I mean, I assume some, you know, I'll be somewhere. I don't, but I can't like physically see myself. You know, you can kind of see yourself with gray hair or children, grandchildren. You know, you kind of have those, those nice vision dreams. I don't have those anymore. So what I do is I simply don't plan for anything that long anymore. I can get out to a year and I market by holidays and I market by holidays because those are the chunks of time that I have to travel with my kids. And I am now marking time with travel and I'm doing it as a building block. And this is just me personally, I'm doing it as a building block so I can create new memories from my children and experiences from my children so that they and I can enjoy the time we have in a different way. Because, you know, we're not a family of four anymore. We're not, you know, happy, shiny, nuclear family. We are something else. We're still a family, but we're a different kind of family now. Yeah. Yeah. I, and I can relate that a little bit because after my daughter passed people talked to me about the future and I'm like, I don't, I don't, I didn't want to think about it. So I, you know, I started slowly started to come back over time. It was like, okay, now I can maybe imagine a week out or a month out or a couple of months, but it would make me angry when people would talk about, you know, too far out. So absolutely. Yeah. People need to understand it. It's like everything just draws in. It becomes like, I can only deal with right now. I can't deal with that. Right. And I think, you know, and I, I don't think that's ill intentioned. I think, you know, people did that with me too. They, they feel that if they can bring some happiness and joy and positivity, positivity that you'll somehow magically feel better because that's what they want. They want to fix it, but they can't fix us. Grief is not something to be fixed and certainly not by an outside source. Um, and that's again, your discomfort because you know, what are they supposed to say? Right? Um, so they, they resort to platitudes or they resort to, Oh, you'll be thriving. Do, you know, when, when you're over this, you know, things like that, again, that are kind of a cognitive disconnect. Um, but, and that's why, that's really why I wrote my book. Don't call me widow, because, you know, really what I really wanted to do is draw back the curtain on what it is we are actually feeling and going through when you, the, you know, the big U says or does things to us in your attempt to comfort us, which fails miserably. And you don't realize it's failing because you can't imagine what we're feeling. And I think that's, you know, that's really why I created it because I feel, you know, I just felt like this is a loss like no other. Um, and it's unimaginable. Um, you know, because you've lost yourself in this loss, you've lost your future, you've lost yourself, you've lost, you know, every bit of certainty you thought you had in this world and you have to somehow rebuild. Yeah. And by the way, I love the title of your book. Um, and it was after my, my friend Mike passed and it was a couple of days later, I was thinking about Lisa, his wife, and I thought of the word widow and I'm just like, Oh, it just sounds so ugly. Doesn't it? I know. I've always had such a visceral reaction to it, you know, and I looked it up and I thought that puts my put it in my book. Um, it's actually, it was, it was created early centuries as Sanskrit and old English, but essentially it means to be destitute and to be basically of no worth to society. And yet this is a term we carry forward and that doesn't define me. So I can't stand that word. Um, and now I know why, because I actually took the time to look it up. Well, we, you know, I guess when we think of it, you know, we think about women who've lost their husbands when they're their seventies or eighties or night, as you said, kind of toward the end of that natural thing. But when it's, it's a person who's in the prime of their life and you know, raising their children and thinking they have 30 or 40 more years to go. And then suddenly it's like, you're kind of, you're kind of almost feels like you're getting pushed aside. I would imagine. Exactly. Yeah, no, exactly. Um, and that's why I've never used the word. And I, I ask people not to call me that. And I, you know, I say that I'm married, my husband died. You know, I just say it that way. Um, I don't put that title on me because it's such an ugly, archaic title that, um, it doesn't do women any, any good. And it does kind of perpetuate that fear and that, oh, poor so-and-so, you know, no, we are, you know, we're going to still be here. And when we look at our society, um, demographically, women tend to outlive men by five or six years. Um, and we are going to have a lot of women who are, you know, who have lost their partners. And, you know, that really coincides with this great wealth transfer that we keep on hearing about that women in the United States will be in charge of two thirds of all of the private wealth in the United States, um, due to in large part inheritances. So it's a fearsome number and a group of women. And, you know, the use of widow I feel is such a misnomer and, and really doesn't do any society or women any good because we will rebuild, we will make impacts. We will do things after this. We will somehow figure out a way, you know, to overcome this, but you know, it's a, you know, we'll do more. And so I, I feel like how society has always framed this particular loss has been, um, not as an important loss yet while it is. And, um, it's, it's diminished women and kind of put them aside. So, you know, what I hear from so many women who've lost their husband is their community, the couples they socialize with regularly that they don't invite them out anymore. They don't invite them out as a single woman. And, you know, sometimes I hear it's because they're awkward. Other times I hear it's because the women are afraid that the woman will go after their husbands, you know, such nonsense. I think it's outdated thinking. Um, and that's, that's why, you know, to me, setting the record straight was really important because there is a divide between these worlds and somehow they don't meet and no one talks to the two of them. The widow groups talk to eat one another and lament and complain. And then everyone continues to remain on the outside. So I really wanted to bring them together to create a broader appreciation because one day it will happen to everyone. Yeah. Well, let's talk about some of those transitions that like the idea of like, okay, so you're, you're a couple, you're, you're Doug and Samina and now you're Samina. And so what was it like for you with, with your friends in terms of, uh, what some of the things that may have done well on some of the things you might've wished they'd done differently in terms of including you, because it is, it's awkward when we we've known someone our lives as, as, as this, and now you're a single. Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting because I do remember in my early, you know, who am I? I remember saying like, who am I, who am I? You know, again, it was shock, shock and disbelief because I lost him and I lost me. And, um, you know, my friends, I, I just say again, they are remarkable. I have been included in everything. Um, I am frequently the, you know, when the two couples go out, we used to be three couples, you know, it's a party of five or it's a party of seven. It's whatever it is. I am always included. And of course there are some things that they go to that, you know, they would do anyway, but by and large, uh, my friend groups, even with husbands has remained intact. Um, and I think that's the important thing. And there's no, uh, there's no awkwardness. And I think when my friends actually said, part of the reason for it is because very early on I told everyone you say his name, do not forget him, do not erase him. Do not think it's going to make me sad because the more you say his name, the more I know he mattered to everyone. And so he is regularly, like Doug's name is everywhere. It's invoked regularly, weekly, now with a sense of, um, it like he's here with us in spirit. Doug would love this and oh, he'd be such a great thing for this. Oh, if people take pictures of things like I'm taking it because I think Doug would like it, you know, it somehow doesn't make sense, but I think making it, um, okay. You know, I think that's, that's a big part of it. So there's no discomfort on their part. Um, you know, I don't talk about it all the time, you know, it's not, you know, a pity party where we're talking about it all the time, but it's just, it's just fine. It's easy. No one shuts anyone down and it's all done with love and you know, true, you know, truly missing someone. And so that bonds us. It doesn't separate us. And how's that been? You said your friends were comfortable inviting you. How's it been for you going and being there without Doug? Is it, how was that, uh, experienced by you? Well, you know, I would be lying if I said, I, you know, it doesn't do anything. I mean, of course I wish you were there. And it was hard the very first few times it made me very, very sad. It made me more sad for my children. Really because you know, it's my need for children to see intact families, you know, children with their fathers, I knew was, was a heavy burden for them. Um, and so my heart really breaks for them, you know, always when they, when they go through this, um, for me, it wasn't awkward. It, you know, it wasn't awkward because again, he was so, so very well known in our community that I've felt nothing but love and inclusion and, you know, the husbands and the wives have all stepped in to play different roles. You know, some of the husbands come in, do, you know, help me with errands and things like that. When it's helping me buy a car, um, you know, they check in on me, they, and it's all done with just a sense of love and community. Um, so I have not felt that I do miss him though. Yeah. Of course, like, I miss him and I talked to him regularly and, um, you know, I, I encourage my kids to do that. And now my kids have started, my kids have said, you know, started saying, oh, daddy did this, or, you know, I wish daddy were here, you know, and, and I encourage that because no good comes of, you know, repressing such big, big emotions and children don't have coping mechanisms. Yeah. And the reason why I asked, I, I, I, you, of course you miss him. I, because sometimes people will, I don't know if that's an excuse that we'll use, we'll say, well, I don't know if we should include her because she might feel awkward. Um, and I remember when, when my friend Mike passed away, it was, it was April 7th and we have a Derby party every year. My, my wife's from Kentucky. So we have a Kentucky Derby party every year, first weekend in May. And Lisa was over and what we were there with our friends. And actually, I think we'd even called her over cause she was thinking, well, should I come to the party or not? You know, because it's, it's, it's so soon and what are people going to think? And we have a, it sounds like you're, you're very fortunate to have a group like, like we are fortunate to have, we're like, yes, we want you to come. We want you to be there, you know, cause you and Mike would be there and, and you're still part of our, so part of, we call ourselves the tribe. You're still part of the tribe. And then when, you know, when the party came, we're like, we want to say some words about Mike. And so we asked Lisa, you know, can we do that? And she's like, well, it's going to bring the party down and we're like, that's okay. We'll just bring it back up. So I want, I want people to understand it's okay to, to include the person and to speak the person's name who's no longer physically with us and include them as part of the group. Absolutely. I'm so glad you did that. And I don't know if I told you this, my husband died on April 7th also. Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think you, I don't think you should project, will that be awkward for, I think you just keep on inviting her and she will come when she can. She will she will say when she's not up to it. And you have to give her that, you know, give her that agency to sometimes just not be in the mood. But always make the offer, make it gently, make it, you know, sincere. And I think including him, you know, Mike is great. You know, I, we belong to a country club community and I had not been to the club since they, they held his memorial service. And that was on May 5th. So we did the memorial service on our wedding anniversary because he died so close to our wedding anniversary. Well, I, you know, I thought I could either be miserable by myself or I could have everyone come be sad together on a day that, you know, was meant to be joyful, but we're still remembering him. And I hadn't been to the clubhouse since May. And then I wanted to try to go be out in public by myself for his birthday. And I went to the club and I, I said, I'm going to plan, you know, a quiet dinner with the girls and on honor of his birthday. And, you know, a few friends said, oh, we want to come, you know, support you. And well, you know, and I had like 25 people join us for dinner because they all wanted to be there and could put us in a different room and everyone toasted him. And it became joyful. It became joyful. And, you know, yes, tinged with sadness, but tinged with friendship and love and camaraderie. So I think, you know, yes, keep, keep asking. Don't ever not ask because we already feel unsure and unsteady and isolated because of our loss. Um, but if, if you've got friends who are able to lift you out of that and act gently and continue to think about you, um, that's, that's just a gift. Yeah. And the reason why I smiled when you said you could be miserable by yourself, that's exactly what I said, at least about the party. I said, you can either be miserable by yourself, or you can come here and be miserable with the rest of us, you know, uh, cause you're gonna be miserable either way. So you might as well be with us. Right. Right. I mean, you know, I think you have to have those friends. Sounds like you have that kind of, you know, friendship group as well, where, um, you know, everyone wanted to be a part of it. People, you know, I want to be part of this dinner and I had thought, oh, I'm going to have, I'm going to muster up all my courage and we're trying not to cry and I'm going to have dinner on his birthday. And it became joyful because, um, everyone wanted, you know, everyone wanted to celebrate home. Yeah. And you know, that made me feel better. And I think that's been, but the community has been so important part of my healing. Um, and part of me getting through some stuff, um, because I've, I felt supported and, and considered and included the whole time. I think that's fantastic. And it's a, I'm very, I'm very grateful for you to have that because I think it's actually pretty rare. I think a lot of times people do tend to run away and we don't have, you know, and it's not, it's never out of a sense of ill intention. People just, they're awkward, you know, they're, they're awkward around people that are in grief and we're not, we're not taught how to deal with it. And as you said, they're trying, sometimes they're trying to fix you. Um, and people need to understand this is, this is a process. It's not something that's going to just like go away because you know, you said some, some platitudes. Yeah, no, absolutely. And again, you know, that's kind of my key, uh, my key takeaway in my book is that our grief is not about your discomfort and you behave the way you do because you're uncomfortable. So if you could push that aside and be more compassionate and intentional and understand how we are taking it, hearing it, what we're experiencing, perhaps this gives you a little look into how you can show up for others because one day you'll want that support too. Yeah. And that's kind of, you know, that's kind of the, aha, you know, it's, it's, it may be uncomfortable now, but everyone will need it. And wouldn't you want your husband or your wife or, you know, what were your loved one to have that same compassionate support in their darkest moments? Yeah. Now, Samina, you're, you said you're about two and a half years into your, your grief journey. Now, um, describe for people how your grief has changed over time. I know you've mentioned something, uh, I think that about the second year connection would be a little bit more difficult than the first. What's your journey been like with the caveat for everybody that everybody's grief is different. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. You know, I, I'd say it's, um, I spent the first year really in a state of utter shock, panic, anxiety. Uh, I was on lots of medications, uh, what wasn't able to drive. I physically could not figure out how to drive. I have no recollection. So I had to have a lot of people help me, uh, throughout, uh, throughout my period of time. And I spent a lot of time in bed. I mean, I was, it hit me like it really just knocks you off of your feet. And as strong as you are through anything else, this is something that is, you know, just unimaginable. It's not like anything else you'll ever experience. Um, so I really wasn't functioning. So grief to me was, you know, losing a lot of weight, not being able to eat, not having, you know, not remembering to shower. Um, I had a lot of people helping to take care of my children. Um, my children would say, you know, mommy, why are you always in bed? And you know, I couldn't, I didn't even have the energy to muster up false, um, happiness or just, you know, so, um, I hired some people, I called on friends and family to help and year two, you know, getting past that one year anniversary, everybody knew the one year anniversary and you know, what should we do? What, you know, how should we, which, you know, what should we do? So I just did a dinner. I just did a dinner so we could all be together. Um, I didn't want to do anything huge, um, because I just couldn't. And I also realized after it was done that, oh my God, this is forever. Like I just spent this one year trying to survive and I did everything. I went through all these motions. I did all over the paperwork. I did all the things you're supposed to do, but now it's a year now. What do I do? I don't have all of those things to distract me. The, you know, the paperwork, which is endless and takes a really, really long time were the plans for you for his birthday or the plan for a Christmas or, you know, I was so I was trying to keep myself so busy. Within my grief, doing the things you're supposed to do when it's fresh and when it happens. But when that one year anniversary happens, the prominence of it really hits hard and society expects you to move on, but you don't. And as you said, you know, it's, it's, it's a journey and it doesn't mean the journey ever ends grief. You know, it's messy. It's chaotic. It's unpredictable. Triggers are everywhere. You know, just anything can trigger it. But it just became much more I guess mentally challenging after year two, because you're really thinking, okay, now I've got to do something else. Now I've spent that first year doing everything associated with it. And now what? And that's when it becomes harder because people also disappear after that first year because people say, okay, one year, great, back to our lives. And you're just reeling because you don't know what that means anymore. You're still picking up pieces and now you're trying to put together a path forward. And it's, it's also lonely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks for explaining that. Because I think it's a surprise to me and I think it surprises a lot of people. As you said, that first year you're, you're getting through it. You've got all these things and you, you kind of like hit these, you hit these milestones. It's like, well, we're, this is the first birthday. This is the first Christmas. This is the first Thanksgiving. And then you realize, oh wait, they're going to be, there could be a lot more of these. It's not just getting through that time. So that, I think that's why it hits harder for some people that second year. I was hesitant. I was just talking to someone earlier today in a group that I helped with. And I said, I always hesitate to tell someone the first year, it can get harder the second year. Because it's not like it gets harder. Like the grief gets deeper or anything like that. It actually, I don't think that's true. It's, it's more, it's just the permanence is, I think what really sinks in. Yeah, no, absolutely. Because you know, that's when it hits you. This is forever. This, you know, okay, I survived somehow. And it was long and it was painful. And in some ways it seems fast, but no, what, you know, I'm going to have to have, I'm going to celebrate every one of my birthdays alone. I'm going to, he'll never celebrate another birthday. Every new year that starts will be another year without him. You know, then you really start to almost like catastrophize the future because it magnified. And that's hard and that's daunting. And you know, that's why, you know, when I said to you earlier, like I can't really envision myself as older than I am now. To me, I'm frozen in time because I, my mind won't let me do it. And I think, I think it's that protective mechanism in your mind. You know, it's, it's protecting you from trauma and grief. And that's why you really lose those functions when you're deeply into it. Because it changes your brain chemistry. It absolutely does. It absolutely does. I learned, this is back when I was in my early grief, that there are people, when we are that close to someone, we're chemically attached to them. It's not just, you know, mostly it's like, it's cellular. Yes. It's cellular. And it's like, it's like drug withdrawal. So that explains the grief fog, which as you said, is very real. People think they're, they're losing their minds. I think they're going through early dementia. They're like, I walked into the room. I don't know what I came here for. You know, so I tell people all those types of things are normal and they will, they will come back. It's just your, your brain is just overwhelmed with this, this reality that doesn't seem real. And so I would, you know, those first weeks, months, I guess waking up and reliving over again, did you, did you go through that experience where it's like, this really happens? Yes. For me, for me it did, because again, my mind was traumatic. And so I was, um, I just couldn't get the image out of him, uh, you know, out of my mind. And then of course I was panicking. Did I, did I tell him, I loved him enough. Did I, you know, like, I just kept on playing it. Like, could he hear me? Should I have done this? Um, should I, he was hooked up to, and I, I, I like laid on him a little bit. I'm like, oh, I hope you didn't, I didn't hurt him. Like you, you just do play that over again. Um, and it's, you know, there's a, there's a really strange feeling of guilt that I at least experienced. I felt that I had somehow brought this on. I thought that I had just, we had just been enjoying ourselves. We had just been commenting on how wonderful life was. I was the happiest I'd ever been. Our kids were healthy. He was healthy. I was healthy. We had the world ahead of us and our lives ahead of us. And somehow I felt like I had brought that on, um, by thinking it like I had taken my life for granted. I had thought it was perfect. I thought it was too good. Um, and I, I grappled with that for months that somehow this was my fault. Somehow I willed this and I know it's not rational, but again, you're not rational in those, you know, in those early months, cause you know, you just don't have that capacity. It's gone. Yeah. And I really appreciate you saying that. And it's so important to people understand that cause I haven't talked to, I don't think I've talked to a single parent that didn't feel some sort of guilt or responsibility when they lost a child. And it's also the same with spouses. Um, maybe not to as great of an extent, but I've worked with more parents and spouses, but we do, we, our brains start to come this crazy things. Is it as somehow my fault because there's something I said or something I didn't say, or as you said, did I tell him I love him enough? Did he hear me? You know, did he feel alone? Did he feel scared? You know, all those kinds of crazy thoughts go through our minds and I'm glad you said that cause I want to normalize that for people so they don't feel like it's just me, you know, there's something wrong with me. It's I think it's a normal human response. I think it is because it is that trauma and you know, something we talked about, about grief, uh, grief brain. Um, you know, you lose all of those senses, but I will tell you, I am changed since that happened. So, you know, you had mentioned earlier, like, you know, you lose some of it and then it comes back. It doesn't always come back. It does. You know, sometimes it does have permanent change. So for example, I used to be tough as nails. And now if someone looks at me wrong, I'm like, I just evolved into a puddle of tears. Like I just lost that part of me. Um, but on the other hand, I think it's made me much more empathetic to others. Um, and you know, shame on me. I wasn't before, right? You know, cause I thought, you know, I was just living my life and doing my thing. And you know, I had always told my husband, he was a nicer person than me because he, he was really an empath. Uh, he was very, very compassionate. Um, and I was just always busy, you know, kind of just not thinking about things. Um, but it has changed me quite a bit. Um, and I think in some ways I'm a, well, in many ways I'm a better parent. Um, he was the primary parent, but I've adopted more of his style and technique, um, to parenting. Um, but yeah, there is a part of me, you know, I know my stamina is not the same. My, my level of motivation drive has shifted. Um, so I'm not the same person I was. So those things didn't come back. Um, and so I've fundamentally changed. So the big, who am I now is, you know, is still a big question mark. Yeah. Excellent point. There are permanent changes and people will ask me, will I ever be the same person I was before? And my answer is probably not, but that's not necessarily a bad thing because I'm like, why would you want to waste all this pain that you're going through? You can use it to do some, make your, to become more empathetic, to become more patient, maybe to become a better parent, et cetera. The other thing I want to say, not to discount what you said about like some of these changes are permanent, but it sometimes takes longer for things to come back than we expect. A lot of times when I'm counseling people, they're like, I don't feel like I'm making any progress. And I'll ask them, how long has it been? And they'll say it's been a year, it's been two years. As someone for me, it's been 10 years since my daughter passed. I still consider two years to be early grief. Um, it's, it's, it there is no end, but I think about where I was at two years versus where I was at five years versus where I was at seven years at two years. I thought I was, you know, done with these, you know, coming back from certain things, but I wasn't yet. It's, it is, it's such a deep wound. I mean, you think the deeper the wound, the longer it takes to come back. So. No, you're absolutely right. Some of those things, I think, I think may have come back, but you're still going through even, even at two and a half years, it's still, it's still early. No, absolutely. You're right. Um, yeah, you're saying for you was 10 years. I have a friend who lost her, her daughter and her mother within a very short period of time. And she said it took her seven years to really feel like she was herself again. So yes, I recognize it's still early. And, um, well, I've talked to a lot of people who had near death experiences and it was interesting. I talked to women, she had, it was an ST spiritual transformer. It wasn't technically a near death experience and she went through all these changes and it was seven years. So seven years, I might, again, we have to be very careful because everybody's different, but I'd say seven years is probably not unrealistic to expect to, to, to really integrate because the thing about grief is we've talked about over and over again, you don't get over it, but you integrate the experience and you kind of bring it together. So some of those, again, some of those changes that are good changes you'll decide I'm going to keep these, but some of the other things like your stamina and you know, maybe patience and stuff like that might start coming back and, but it might take a while. Yeah, no, absolutely. It is a, it is early days and you know, here it is. I'm putting my own expectations, my old expectations on myself, like this, you know, and that's, again, for me, me trying to take back some semblance of control, right? Because I didn't have any, right? And so, but no, I recognize I have to give myself more time. Yeah. And I, and I really, I really, like I said, I hesitate to say that to people it's like seven years. Cause it seems like so long and we want to, we want to be like back to where we want to, we want to bounce back. And I always use analogies in my, in my business. It's a tree. You know, when you tell people when you plant a seed to grow a tree, you don't look at the tree and expect it to be there the next day or the next week or the next month or even the next year, it takes a while to grow a tree. And that's kind of what we're going through when we go through these really, really life. I don't even know how to put it. Like you said, it's life altering. It really is. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, uh, well, it's like a different life. You know, there, as you said, there's before and there's after, you know, there's, there's the who you were before and there's who you are becoming now. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And so, you know, it is, uh, one of those things that no one really thinks about, you know, especially as, as we all get older, you know, we're still not thinking about it. So, um, but it is going to happen. And, you know, I even noticed my professional circles. There's so many people, colleagues, former colleagues who are posting announcements of other colleagues who have passed away. And I thought, Oh my God, we, you know, we really have to get better at this as a society, you know, of recognizing what it is that, you know, life is not, we're not, we're not all living till a hundred. Um, that life is full of challenges. That grief is a part of life. Um, and that it deserves the kind of attention and respect, um, that it should get because, uh, you know, it touches us all. It touches us all. Um, and we just have to get a little bit more real with it. Yeah. You, you said something that I really want to, I wanted to touch on. You talked about, um, solo parenting as opposed to single parenting and explain to people what that means to you. Oh yes. Um, so, you know, single parenting is a very well-established term. It's usually, uh, uh, parent has chosen to raise a child by themselves or through circumstance, divorce. Um, there was a choice that was made by one or two adults to raise a child or children as a single person. Right. Solo means completely alone and solo parenting is what we who have lost our partner are doing with our children. And why I put that out there was because there was something, uh, there, there's so much on social media, um, about, uh, men taking credit for having their children for the day. I mean, they're happily married. They should be an equal parent anyway, but somehow they want to pat on the back for being a solo parent. And it came up in my grief group. And, um, so much of what's in my, in my book comes from the discussions in my grief group. And it's kind of all of the things that just really piss us off because we are solo. We have no one to share the mental load of making important decisions for our children. We have to do all of not just forget about doc you're coordinating and taking them to doctors appointments, but you know, the school, how are they doing in school? Should we look at another school? You know, how should we make this decision for our child? You know, how do we guide them towards colleges? Do they need therapy? We bear 110% of that by ourselves. There is no one to have the conversation with who would love your child the way a parent would love your child. You can, yes, of course you can bat it through, you know, with, with friends or families for opinions, but it's not the same. It's not that same, like, you know, partners, partnered decision-making, partnered thinking, partnered planning. We don't have that. So, you know, when I say that, uh, you know, my friend groups, they go out, you know, sometimes without me most of the time it's because I don't have anyone to watch my children, right? Um, because I have to rely on nannies and babysitters or this person or that person. The mental load is very, very big. I can no longer go on a business trip, uh, or do a quick overnight, or I can't do anything spontaneously. You know, um, I've lost that. Um, and there's no one to call for that immediate backup. It's all got to be carefully orchestrated and thought through and planned with backups and this and that. Um, and so that is solo parenting. That is, you are on your own. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for the, thanks for explaining that. So, so I mean, I know you also have a podcast. Talk about your podcast. What did you cover and who's it for? Yeah. So the podcast is called afterlife and it really is a companion to my book. Um, so the book is really meant to be a practical guide to help, uh, shepherd someone through supporting someone they love who who's lost a spouse. The podcast really digs deep into several topics of people who, um, some people who supported me as well as, um, someone who runs a grief group for children. And what it does is it brings to life what I am talking about in the book. And so when I talk about how does a friend show up for someone, I have two, two of my friends, how did they push aside their discomfort? How did they know what to do? How did they not let grief, you know, kind of crumble them? How were they able to be such good support people? And in those episodes, there are really so many wonderful tidbits about making people more comfortable with themselves and really letting themselves be present for the ones they love. And one of my episodes I spoke with my financial advisor who, um, really helped me through a lot of the paperwork because when you are grieving the loss of your spouse, there's a ton of paperwork to do. And again, you're, you know, it's overwhelming even in the best of circumstances, but now compound that with grief and an ability to focus on it. And it's really daunting, but it's all crucially important to ensure you're sustainable and you're able to survive. Um, and so he, he and I spoke about that. He literally came to my house with forms filled out for me to just sign. He bought me danishes. He sat with me for coffee. He went that extra mile, but we talked about all of the important things that people need to know so that when you step in for someone you love and you need to help them organize their affairs, you'll know what to do. And, you know, I also spoke with, um, the woman Cara Belvin who runs a very important and powerful group for children who are, uh, who are experiencing the loss of their parents. Um, she's on the East coast and she lost her mother when she was a child and it profoundly transformed her life. And she like me recognizes the importance of supporting children through their grief and not sweeping it under the rug and saying children are so resilient because they need extra care and extra attention so that they can grow up to be successful in adulthood because this loss shapes them in so very many ways. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds like it's a great resource. And I was going to ask you, and I will ask you if you feel anything else, but I was going to ask you, like, how do you think society could do a better job of helping people through grief or helping people understand grief? I think it's a lot of the things you're doing, but is there anything else you'd like to add? Yeah, no, I think, you know, talking about it, not being afraid of it and, um, pushing aside your discomfort. Yeah. You know, we, we always say that the things that challenge us and make us uncomfortable are the things that make us grow. Grief is one of those things and it will only benefit us as society if we confront it more truthfully than we have and not hide from it. Yeah. You know, we talked about, and I, this is, I'm just kind of thinking out loud here as we're wrapping up, you know, as grieving people, a lot of times they'll say, people said this to me and it really bothered me. But then on the other hand, a lot of times people are afraid to say anything because they don't want to offend us. So I guess I would say to people like, you're, you're going to say the wrong thing. So just say it anyway. I mean, how would you feel about that? No, I would say not to. I said, that's actually what I write in my book. And you know, again, that place of discomfort is what drives people to say something as a platitude, um, and it misses the mark, or they stay silent because they're so uncomfortable. But if you could just put yourself in their shoes and think of how you would want to be treated as opposed to thinking about, I am here to give condolences to someone as opposed to you pushing your feelings to someone. Think about what it's like to be on the other end. And I know you can't because it is so hard to understand, but it's the, it's the compassion that we need most. It's the, you know, it's the platitudes we don't need platitudes or platitudes for a reason. They are hollow, but at their worst, they hurt us because they offend us. And you know, in our minds, we remember every kindness. I remember every single thing, every email I got, every card I read, I couldn't say thank you, uh, for everything. But I remember, but I also remember every slight, I remember when people compared their losses to mine. I remember when people told me, well, God only takes the good ones. And I was like, what? You know, um, I remember all of those. So I would just say, um, it's not too late. I think that's also the real, you know, the, the really important thing to remember is it's never too late. You know, if around these holiday times, you know, someone has lost someone, a simple text, even say, you know, I've been thinking about you and I hope you're doing well. I'm sending you a hug. That could do it. That, and you don't recognize how much that could mean to someone just to know they're being thought of, that they're not forgotten. Yeah, that's a really good point. And we started, we started talking before we started recording. We're recording this the first of December and I asked you how you were doing. And we talked about this time of year because of the holidays and different things that come up. But a lot of times a lot of us are feeling a little bit drained and maybe a little bit more, you know, lonely. It's a great time of year to reach out to someone that's, that you know, has gone through a loss. And as you said, just say, I'm thinking about you. Yeah, that's it. It doesn't have to, you know, no hearts, happy things, happy, Merry Christmas, you know, happy New Year's, just, I'm thinking of you today. They'll know what it means. They'll, they'll appreciate the sensitivity. You know, and I think that's really all that any one of us can want, right? It's to be, it's to be remembered, to be acknowledged, to not be forgotten when we feel forgotten because, you know, the holidays are tough. As I told you, you know, I'm, I'm very low today. And it's, it's going to be part of my month. Yeah. And, and, and that's okay. You know, the thing is, I mean, I, I struggled this time of year also has said it's been, it's been 10 years since my daughter passed. But to me, it's, I live in Ohio and it's dark. It's, it's, we're, it's five o'clock and it's dark outside already. So there's, there's, that natural thing too. So when you're reaching out to someone that's in grief, it's not our job to, to make them feel better. It's just our job. As you said, to kind of acknowledge it, show some compassion and, and patience, you know, and we have to be patient with ourselves as the grieving person as well, that this is something that is going to take us a while to, to grow through. Yeah, absolutely. We have to give ourselves grace and we need others to give us grace. As I mentioned, I, I know I did receive so many beautiful outreaches when, when Doug died and I did not, I wasn't able to say thank you. I certainly wasn't at the time and then a year had passed. I was my year too. And then it became like, oh, can I do that? It's going to make me sad again. I don't know if I can, you know, I don't know if I want to go there. So know that, you know, doing something, saying something means a lot and it doesn't have to be the perfect words. It doesn't have to be the perfect, most grand gesture. It could be something as simple as, you know, sitting in silence for a cup of coffee, keeping someone company, watching a movie. It doesn't have to be a heavy lift, sending, you know, sending a well-timed email, you know, when you feel it for no reason. Yeah. Those are the gestures that mean the most. Sabina, is there anything that you wanted to talk about that I didn't ask you about today? No, I think, I think we've covered so much of it. I just, you know, hope that we're able to, through our mutual efforts, really help normalize grief as part of life. You can't have life without grief. And, you know, to remember, to kind of let's hold up a mirror to one another and think of how we would want to be treated in our, our darkest moments. And yeah, you know, I just hope that those who are listening to this and to my podcast, take something from it and can make someone else's experience a little gentler. Yeah. Well, I want to commend you for the work that you're doing. It's very much needed. And I think that, you know, the more that we are, it can become vulnerable and put ourselves out there and let people know what we're feeling and normalize, you know, what we're going through and let people know, okay, it's not, doesn't have to be a heavy lift. It could be something small. Just do those small gestures. Trust your intuition. If you're thinking about somebody, maybe there's a reason for it. So just reach out and, you know, say, I'm thinking about you. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's not about perfection. It's about presence. Yeah. So remind people of where they can reach you and the name of your book again. Absolutely. So they, everyone can reach me at Samina berry.com and I've got two books. I can, I will, and I did. And don't call me widow. Both are available on Amazon. And then my podcast after life is available on all major streaming platforms. Awesome. Well, thanks for being here. Enjoy the rest of your afternoon. Thank you so much. You too.