Grieving the Loss of a Friend | Hannah Rumsey on Platonic Love, Storytelling, and Healing

What happens when your soulmate isn't a romantic partner — but your best friend — and they're suddenly gone?

In this heart-opening episode, I sit down with writer, performer, and podcast host Hannah Rumsey to explore the often-overlooked pain of grieving the loss of a friend. After losing her friend Lauren in a tragic accident, Hannah found herself in a grief no one seemed to understand — one without rituals, recognition, or even language.

Through storytelling, personal reflection, and a profound spiritual experience, Hannah turned her heartbreak into Friends Missing Friends, a community and podcast for those who have loved and lost a friend.

🧠 We talk about:

• Why society often dismisses friend grief
• The power of platonic love and chosen family
• How creativity and storytelling can help us heal
• What not to say to someone who’s grieving a friend
• Signs from the other side — and how they help us stay connected

Whether you’ve lost a childhood best friend, a soul friend, or someone you drifted from before they passed — this episode is for you.

🔗 Links & Resources:

🎧 Listen to Friends Missing Friends
https://www.friendsmissingfriends.com

📸 Follow Hannah on Instagram
@friendsmissingfriends

📧 Contact Hannah
friendsmissingfriends@gmail.com

📝 Subscribe to Brian’s Substack for More
https://grief2growth.substack.com

💬 We'd Love to Hear From You

Have you lost a friend and felt your grief wasn't acknowledged? What helped you cope?

👉 Share your story in the comments
👉 Email Brian at hello@grief2growth.com

👉 Join the conversation on Substack

Visit the Grief 2 Growth store for FREE items as well as other tools to help you along your journey:

• Guided Meditations
• My book GEMS of Healing (signed copy)
• My Oracle deck to help you connect with your loved ones
• Mini-courses
• Mini-guides
  
  

Check it out at https://grief2growth.com/store

I'm excited to announce a new resource I'm very proud of. This guide outlines the four daily practices I discovered on my grief journey. These techniques have helped dozens of my clients. Get it free today.

GEMS- 4 Steps To Go From Grief To Joy

Transcript

[Brian D. Smith] [0.56s] Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be.

[Brian D. Smith] [17.11s] We feel like we've been buried.

[Brian D. Smith] [19.27s] But what if like a seed we've been planted, and having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree.

[Brian D. Smith] [28.07s] Now, open your eyes.

[Brian D. Smith] [30.59s] Open your eyes to this way of viewing life.

[Brian D. Smith] [33.15s] Come with me as we explore your true infinite, eternal nature.

[Brian D. Smith] [38.83s] This is grief to growth.

[Brian D. Smith] [40.67s] And I am your host, Brian Smith.

[Brian D. Smith] [45.22s] Hi, there.

[Brian D. Smith] [45.70s] I'm Brian Smith, and I want to welcome you to grief to growth.

[Brian D. Smith] [48.02s] And whether this is your first time listening, or you've been with us in this journey for a while, I'm really glad you're here.

[Brian D. Smith] [53.77s] On this show, we navigate the toughest parts of life together we talk about loss, pain, but we also talk about healing and purpose.

[Brian D. Smith] [61.33s] We ask the deep questions like who are we?

[Brian D. Smith] [63.97s] Where do we come from?

[Brian D. Smith] [65.09s] Why are we here?

[Brian D. Smith] [66.05s] Where are we going?

[Brian D. Smith] [67.49s] My goal is to give you tools, stories, insights to help you grow through grief and move through meaning.

[Brian D. Smith] [73.86s] Today's episode shines a light on a type of grief that often goes unspoken and that's friend loss.

[Brian D. Smith] [79.14s] Our friend is our guest and friend is Hannah Rumsey.

[Brian D. Smith] [82.75s] She's a writer, performer and a podcaster based in Chicago.

[Brian D. Smith] [86.45s] Since losing her close friend, Lauren, in 2015, Hannah's poured her heart into exploring the deep impact of losing a friend.

[Brian D. Smith] [93.17s] It's a grief that's often overlooked and misunderstood.

[Brian D. Smith] [96.45s] And just on a personal note, this is very personal to me today because I lost a dear friend just four months ago as of the time of recording this.

[Brian D. Smith] [104.01s] So from her one woman show, forty two days of summer, to her memoir in progress, l is for Lauren, Hannah has used creativity and storytelling to process her own loss.

[Brian D. Smith] [113.70s] But she didn't stop there.

[Brian D. Smith] [114.82s] She went on to found Friends Missing Friends, a podcast, and community designed to support others navigating this unique and often disenfranchised grief.

[Brian D. Smith] [124.10s] So in our conversation, we'll explore why why grieving a friend can be so complicated, the doubts and anxieties that can follow this type of loss.

[Brian D. Smith] [132.28s] And I will talk about how Hannah found healing through writing and through community.

[Brian D. Smith] [136.28s] We'll also talk about what real support can look like when someone in your life is grieving a friend and why honoring those losses matters more than we might think.

[Brian D. Smith] [145.12s] By the end of this episode, hopefully, you'll have a deeper understanding of how friendship loss shapes us and how you can show your show up for yourself and for others who walk in this path.

[Brian D. Smith] [155.66s] And as always, at the end of the episode, feel free to continue the conversation.

[Brian D. Smith] [159.97s] Join me on my Substack at grief to growth dot substack dot com.

[Brian D. Smith] [164.06s] And with that, I'd like to welcome Hannah to Grief to Growth.

[Hannah Rumsey] [168.06s] Hi.

[Hannah Rumsey] [168.29s] Thank you so much.

[Hannah Rumsey] [169.17s] It's so great to be here.

[Brian D. Smith] [171.25s] It's really great to have you here today, Hannah.

[Brian D. Smith] [173.01s] As I was telling you earlier, I got your email.

[Brian D. Smith] [175.73s] You said you wanted to you were interested in coming out of the program right after I had the loss of my friend, Mike, which was just a few months ago.

[Brian D. Smith] [182.61s] And I wanna say, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of of your friend, Lauren.

[Brian D. Smith] [186.25s] I know that's it's obviously changed your life in in many different ways.

[Brian D. Smith] [190.97s] But before we get into the all that, let's talk about Lauren.

[Brian D. Smith] [194.25s] Tell me about Lauren, your friend.

[Hannah Rumsey] [197.45s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [197.93s] I Lauren, it's isn't it interesting whenever you're asked to describe someone because people are so complex?

[Hannah Rumsey] [206.17s] And it's like, okay.

[Hannah Rumsey] [206.97s] How can I describe a whole entire human in one paragraph?

[Hannah Rumsey] [210.17s] And it's impossible.

[Hannah Rumsey] [211.47s] Right.

[Hannah Rumsey] [211.88s] I I feel like I'm barely scratching the surface even as I write a book.

[Hannah Rumsey] [216.75s] But the best I can describe her, and knowing this would never fully describe her, is that she's the funniest person I've ever known.

[Hannah Rumsey] [225.00s] And everyone I met at the funeral and afterwards said the same thing.

[Hannah Rumsey] [231.25s] So many, many people said she's the funniest person they've ever known.

[Hannah Rumsey] [235.57s] And she was so incredibly silly and goofy.

[Hannah Rumsey] [242.33s] And, like, I give this example because it's so specific and unique where I was with her at we met at a summer camp in 02/2009, and I was 17, and she was 15.

[Hannah Rumsey] [253.76s] And we were just walking around.

[Hannah Rumsey] [255.68s] And with no warning at all, she just starts she runs off and starts galloping like a horse Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [262.32s] Just for fun because she felt like it.

[Hannah Rumsey] [264.64s] It's like what a five year old would do, you know, where they're just full of such joy and they just act on impulse.

[Hannah Rumsey] [270.97s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [271.69s] And I remember being so shocked because it was so unexpected.

[Hannah Rumsey] [277.38s] And then I just joined in behind her, and we were galloping together like these teenagers.

[Hannah Rumsey] [283.99s] We weren't children, you know, but we were at heart.

[Hannah Rumsey] [287.51s] And I remember the feeling of I remember thinking this so distinctly, like, I was so not embarrassed, and, like, nothing could embarrass me when I was next to her.

[Hannah Rumsey] [302.81s] And it was, like, that feeling of, like, when you're with a certain person and they really click with you, it's like you're kind of invincible, honestly.

[Hannah Rumsey] [315.48s] Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [317.40s] So, obviously, her life impacted you, you know, quite a bit.

[Brian D. Smith] [321.17s] I mean, this was this was ten years ago she passed, and it's still something that that resonates with you.

[Brian D. Smith] [326.21s] So why do you think, that friendship made such a deep and lasting impact on you?

[Hannah Rumsey] [333.74s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [333.90s] I think there's a lot of a lot of, moving parts to that.

[Hannah Rumsey] [338.70s] And one is that we met at a time when I was incredibly insecure and lonely, And it was at the I like to describe it as the cusp between childhood and adulthood.

[Brian D. Smith] [355.21s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [355.53s] Like, 17 is kind of a bizarre age.

[Hannah Rumsey] [358.33s] Like, you're still kind of a child, and you're still almost an adult.

[Hannah Rumsey] [361.45s] And all of my peers in in high school wanted to grow up and were, like, ready to get out of the house and have a car and, like, you know, all these things.

[Hannah Rumsey] [371.65s] And I wasn't ready for that yet.

[Hannah Rumsey] [373.57s] I was grieving the end of childhood.

[Brian D. Smith] [376.37s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [376.85s] Actually, before I even knew that that's what I was that that's what was happening.

[Hannah Rumsey] [382.69s] And then, you know, at the time, I I really felt like I didn't click with people.

[Hannah Rumsey] [388.38s] I kind of describe it as I feel like I was on an AM frequency, and everyone else was on FM, which is very INFJ of me.

[Hannah Rumsey] [397.75s] We always feel different than everybody else.

[Hannah Rumsey] [402.15s] And then it's like I meet her and we're, like, on the same AM frequency like to the tenth digit

[Brian D. Smith] [408.88s] to

[Hannah Rumsey] [409.04s] the hundredth digit and.

[Hannah Rumsey] [412.96s] That summer like while at school, I was really quiet and moody at least from my perspective, I was and felt like I didn't have many friends and then I go to the summer camp and it's like she just cracks me open and like I describe it as like more words and tears and laughter flowed through me that summer in six weeks than they normally would do in a year.

[Hannah Rumsey] [439.07s] So just that feeling of like she came in a very particular time in my life when I needed someone like her and she I really feel like she helped me to access a certain part of myself that I was having trouble accessing before.

[Hannah Rumsey] [456.01s] And I just came alive around her.

[Hannah Rumsey] [458.81s] Right.

[Hannah Rumsey] [460.25s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [460.65s] That's kind of the best way I can describe it.

[Brian D. Smith] [462.73s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [463.05s] Sure.

[Brian D. Smith] [463.29s] Absolutely.

[Brian D. Smith] [464.17s] So it sounds like you guys were friends for, what, about six years before her before her passing?

[Brian D. Smith] [469.76s] And so tell me about that, you know, when when she passed and and you're going through that, your grief.

[Hannah Rumsey] [477.29s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [477.69s] So it's it's it was kind of an unusual friendship and I'll maybe not unusual, but in that most of the friendship, the brick and mortar of it was those six weeks in person at the camp.

[Hannah Rumsey] [492.30s] After that, it was long distance.

[Hannah Rumsey] [494.86s] She lived in Pennsylvania, and I lived in Virginia.

[Hannah Rumsey] [498.21s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [498.78s] And we tried, I mean, so many times, probably over 20 times, if not more, to meet up.

[Hannah Rumsey] [505.77s] But we were so busy with college, and it just never ended up working out.

[Hannah Rumsey] [511.93s] And I've had to, like, tell myself over the years, because I've had a lot of regret about that, of not just dropping everything and visiting her, is that we thought we had had a lifetime.

[Brian D. Smith] [523.11s] Right.

[Hannah Rumsey] [523.42s] We thought we had eighty years.

[Hannah Rumsey] [525.35s] Right.

[Hannah Rumsey] [525.50s] So they didn't feel like there was a rush, and we were comfortable in our friendship that there was no panic.

[Hannah Rumsey] [533.75s] There was we would talk over the phone and on Skype and like that.

[Hannah Rumsey] [538.59s] We yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [539.47s] I don't know.

[Hannah Rumsey] [540.19s] I can't speak for her, but I felt very comfortable in our friendship at the time.

[Hannah Rumsey] [544.91s] But, sadly, yeah, I didn't I only saw her one other time shortly after camp, and then I didn't see her in person again.

[Brian D. Smith] [551.47s] Oh, wow.

[Brian D. Smith] [552.03s] Okay.

[Brian D. Smith] [553.03s] And her passing, was it a sudden thing?

[Hannah Rumsey] [556.79s] Yes.

[Hannah Rumsey] [557.43s] It was very sudden, and unexpected.

[Hannah Rumsey] [562.95s] And what happened was she was studying abroad in Spain in 2015.

[Hannah Rumsey] [569.52s] She was a rising senior, I believe, in college.

[Hannah Rumsey] [573.44s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [573.92s] And, it was she was gonna have her birthday over there on July 19.

[Hannah Rumsey] [581.65s] And we the last message we said to each other was I'd posted on her Facebook wall because it was back when people did that.

[Brian D. Smith] [589.89s] Some of us still do that as as older people.

[Hannah Rumsey] [592.66s] Oh, okay.

[Hannah Rumsey] [594.42s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [594.58s] I didn't mean to to bash it, but it's been a long time since I've posted on anyone's wall.

[Hannah Rumsey] [598.98s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [599.30s] It's still my daughter.

[Hannah Rumsey] [601.38s] Aw.

[Hannah Rumsey] [602.34s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [603.46s] And I posted something like, you know, I miss you.

[Hannah Rumsey] [606.53s] You know, how's Spain going?

[Hannah Rumsey] [609.65s] And she was like, oh my gosh.

[Hannah Rumsey] [611.17s] Yes.

[Hannah Rumsey] [611.41s] It's amazing.

[Hannah Rumsey] [612.05s] Like, I can't wait to talk about Skype as soon as I get back, to The States mid August.

[Hannah Rumsey] [617.82s] And so that was the last communication we had.

[Hannah Rumsey] [622.75s] And then July 19, it was her birthday, so I posted happy birthday on her wall.

[Hannah Rumsey] [629.55s] And then I scrolled down to read other birthday posts, but it was just rest in peace posts.

[Hannah Rumsey] [637.99s] And that was how I found out she had died.

[Hannah Rumsey] [641.99s] And there were lots of articles on there and my brain wasn't like anyone who's experienced shock.

[Brian D. Smith] [647.26s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [647.90s] Like it doesn't feel real for like at least five minutes

[Brian D. Smith] [651.05s] or

[Hannah Rumsey] [651.21s] at least that's how I experienced it.

[Hannah Rumsey] [652.65s] So it just like it wasn't computing.

[Hannah Rumsey] [655.69s] It didn't make sense.

[Hannah Rumsey] [657.37s] So at first, I felt nothing, just numbness.

[Hannah Rumsey] [659.77s] And I was reading these articles, and they all said the same thing over and over, which was you know, Penn State senior dies falling off balcony while studying abroad in Spain.

[Hannah Rumsey] [674.47s] And I was like, but that doesn't and it's like your brain is not thinking logically because my I was thinking, but I just talked to

[Brian D. Smith] [682.14s] her right.

[Hannah Rumsey] [683.01s] I just talked to her last week

[Brian D. Smith] [684.61s] right

[Hannah Rumsey] [685.09s] so she couldn't be dead.

[Hannah Rumsey] [687.89s] And then after reading like 10 articles, it hit me and I remember I fell to the ground and started screaming.

[Brian D. Smith] [695.26s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [695.50s] I'm so sorry.

[Brian D. Smith] [696.30s] And I you know, as we're as we're having this conversation, my daughter was 15 when she passed away.

[Brian D. Smith] [701.58s] It happened to be in 2015.

[Hannah Rumsey] [703.75s] Oh.

[Brian D. Smith] [703.90s] And it was it was sudden.

[Brian D. Smith] [705.58s] And, just just a few months ago, a few weeks ago, actually, I got a hold of an app that allowed me to get into her phone, because it was backed up to my iCloud.

[Brian D. Smith] [715.84s] Oh.

[Brian D. Smith] [716.16s] So I got it in her phone, and I started reading the text messages coming in from the kids.

[Brian D. Smith] [720.24s] She was a she was a sophomore in high school, growing in their sophomore year.

[Brian D. Smith] [724.09s] And I just felt so bad for those kids because that reaction, like you were saying, I just talked to you yesterday.

[Brian D. Smith] [730.49s] This this can't be true.

[Brian D. Smith] [732.88s] And and seeing that, you know, on Facebook, so I get I can relate to that that shock and that disbelief and, you know, that like like I said, I saw I saw these kids going through that.

[Brian D. Smith] [744.82s] So I I appreciate you acknowledging that that horrific feeling that someone has when you lose a friend like that, and you have to hear about it through some, you know, through Facebook posts.

[Hannah Rumsey] [756.88s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [757.45s] Well, that's that's so recent that you were going through those texts.

[Hannah Rumsey] [762.25s] Oh my gosh.

[Hannah Rumsey] [763.13s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [763.61s] That yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [765.30s] And it's like there's no it's hard to explain, but there's no good way to find out that someone died.

[Hannah Rumsey] [770.74s] It's like it'll be horrible and traumatic no matter what.

[Brian D. Smith] [774.10s] Right.

[Hannah Rumsey] [775.94s] But, yeah, if there's something about finding out in such an impersonal way, like, on Facebook wall, that's really, like that was really tough to find out that way.

[Brian D. Smith] [786.43s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [786.83s] Absolutely.

[Brian D. Smith] [787.88s] So for for you, in terms of did you attend her service?

[Brian D. Smith] [793.22s] Or how how were you involved in in the, things after that?

[Hannah Rumsey] [798.50s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [798.90s] So I am so grateful to her mother who has sadly since passed away.

[Hannah Rumsey] [806.68s] A few years after her daughter's death, but her mother was so incredibly welcoming to me and involving me and keeping me in the loop and sending me messages because I reached out to her on Facebook, and then we just kind of up until she died, we had a back and forth on Facebook.

[Hannah Rumsey] [831.30s] So because of that, I felt, more involved than I would have been otherwise.

[Hannah Rumsey] [837.78s] But, I did go to the service and, yeah, I just from what I remember, I mean, I remember every moment of the service.

[Hannah Rumsey] [849.88s] But a detail that I often tell is that, like, I feel like most funerals, at least that I've been to, I can't speak for all funerals, of course, but it's so, like, quiet.

[Hannah Rumsey] [863.88s] And it's like my grief was like a hurricane, and like I wanted to scream and yell, but, like, you had to just have polite tears.

[Hannah Rumsey] [873.00s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [873.32s] And I remember that feeling so off and so wrong.

[Hannah Rumsey] [876.75s] And I was shaking from the effort of clenching every single muscle in my body.

[Hannah Rumsey] [883.31s] So, as much as, the memorial service was released in some ways, in other ways, it felt just awful.

[Brian D. Smith] [893.78s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [894.42s] You know, kinda closed off.

[Brian D. Smith] [896.26s] Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [896.83s] So, you know, we we have different types of, not different types of losses, but we have like, I'm part of an organization called helping parents heal.

[Brian D. Smith] [904.98s] So it's organization for parents who have lost children.

[Brian D. Smith] [909.38s] Then there's different, you know, so people when someone loses a child, we all say, you know, it's a terrible thing, or someone losing a parent, or a spouse.

[Brian D. Smith] [917.51s] You know?

[Brian D. Smith] [918.95s] But friend loss, and from your experience, how is it different in terms of people acknowledging your grief?

[Hannah Rumsey] [926.95s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [927.60s] It's from my experience and from many people I've talked to, it's very different.

[Hannah Rumsey] [935.50s] Both in just how people would treat me and then how the world treats me.

[Hannah Rumsey] [944.33s] And an example is I took two days off work, but then I just went back to work because I didn't know what else to do.

[Hannah Rumsey] [951.13s] Right.

[Hannah Rumsey] [951.37s] And also, by the way, you don't get bereavement leave when a friend dies.

[Hannah Rumsey] [954.49s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [956.09s] And so I go back to work and and, people were also incredibly kind.

[Hannah Rumsey] [961.18s] Of course, I remember distinctly the ones that weren't so kind.

[Hannah Rumsey] [965.02s] But, you know, coworkers gave me hugs and said kind things.

[Hannah Rumsey] [967.98s] And then one said like, diminished it immediately.

[Hannah Rumsey] [972.14s] She looked at me, and she was like, you probably won't think about your friend much anymore one day.

[Hannah Rumsey] [977.38s] And I was like, I remember shaking.

[Hannah Rumsey] [981.23s] Like, again, with the feeling of like, you have no idea.

[Hannah Rumsey] [986.35s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [987.97s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [988.21s] So just kind of from the get go, getting diminished in in ways like that.

[Hannah Rumsey] [992.93s] And then also just in that, I couldn't find a a group that was specifically for friend loss.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1002.53s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1003.49s] And even to this day and II feel like where it's like they've gotta be out there somewhere right, but maybe just the Google algorithm is catching on.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1012.68s] I don't know but like when I Google it or look online like I cannot find I maybe found, like, one.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1020.10s] Like, it's there's just not a lot out there.

[Brian D. Smith] [1023.62s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [1023.94s] I I truly believe that.

[Brian D. Smith] [1025.22s] I I I work with people going through different types of losses and even finding, like, like I said, I'm part of helping parents heal, but, like, sibling loss.

[Brian D. Smith] [1033.85s] When someone loses a sibling, we don't really have, you know, a lot of support for that.

[Brian D. Smith] [1037.61s] And, you know, there are these types of losses that are, overlooked or, you know, kind of swept under the rug, like losing a friend or sometimes losing a pet.

[Brian D. Smith] [1048.69s] You know?

[Brian D. Smith] [1048.93s] And all these losses are are very real.

[Brian D. Smith] [1051.33s] And I really appreciate you, you know, acknowledging this.

[Brian D. Smith] [1054.53s] And, again, you know, this being ten years on after your friend, how it's still impacting you.

[Brian D. Smith] [1059.17s] And I see with my daughter's friends, and it's it's wild because she was 15 when she passed.

[Brian D. Smith] [1064.46s] And I remember thinking, well, I probably won't think about her much, you know, once they go to college, stuff like that, five, six years later.

[Brian D. Smith] [1071.02s] You know, in their case, like, three years later, and they still do.

[Brian D. Smith] [1074.07s] They still acknowledge her.

[Brian D. Smith] [1075.18s] They still talk about her.

[Brian D. Smith] [1077.26s] We're doing a memorial project for her right now, and and and almost everyone who contacted, they wanted to be involved.

[Brian D. Smith] [1083.74s] So Wow.

[Brian D. Smith] [1085.02s] You know, a friendship continues, that love continues even after your friend, you know, does pass on, even if you happen to be young when it happens.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1095.90s] Yes.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1096.38s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1096.87s] I agree with that.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1097.83s] That's that's so beautiful that you're doing a memorial project together.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1101.59s] Oh.

[Brian D. Smith] [1102.79s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [1103.03s] Well, you know, and it's again, it's in the same thing, you know, for you.

[Brian D. Smith] [1106.58s] You're doing a memorial project for your friend.

[Brian D. Smith] [1108.50s] You're, you know, you're you're writing this book, and you started this organization to help others that are going through this.

[Brian D. Smith] [1114.10s] So it is, it's obviously made a huge impact on your life, and people people do.

[Brian D. Smith] [1120.26s] They they they create, parts of our lives that would that'll never be the same again.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1128.19s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1128.52s] It's it's absolutely true.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1130.04s] And I I feel like in general, the world, the world undervalues or, like, undercuts love.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1143.21s] Like, I think, honestly, everywhere.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1146.09s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1146.25s] Like, diminishes, you know, yeah, diminishes what it is.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1151.54s] And so I think, like, platonic love and specifically, like, friendship, platonic love, I guess, is I feel like one of the most diminished.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1160.26s] And I I don't know why.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1162.35s] Like, I I'm like, why why is that any less real than romantic love?

[Hannah Rumsey] [1168.11s] Like, it's different Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1169.47s] But it doesn't have to mean that it's less.

[Brian D. Smith] [1172.75s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [1173.07s] That's a really good point.

[Brian D. Smith] [1174.03s] And now and I was listening to something the other day, and they were talking about it in in English.

[Brian D. Smith] [1177.33s] You know, we have this one word, love Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [1180.68s] That was we go from, I, you know, I love hot dogs to I love my mother, and it's the same, you know, it's the same word.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1188.04s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [1188.68s] And, you know, so, you know, relationships, friendships.

[Brian D. Smith] [1193.11s] And I was telling you earlier before it got started, and I mentioned it earlier in the podcast, my friend Mike passed away in in April.

[Brian D. Smith] [1200.23s] Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [1201.67s] But in many ways and I don't know if my family will hear this or not, but in many ways, my friends are closer than my than my brothers and my sisters because we choose our friendships, and we choose to be in relationship with those with those people.

[Brian D. Smith] [1214.43s] Family, you know, you may or may not be close to your family, you know, in in a sense.

[Brian D. Smith] [1219.70s] But our friends, we choose, and we choose to go through life together.

[Brian D. Smith] [1222.58s] And there's a very old saying that, blood is thicker than water.

[Brian D. Smith] [1226.90s] And the way I've heard the original that's saying was the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb, Meaning that the people that we choose to do life with, those are the bonds that we form.

[Brian D. Smith] [1237.78s] So our our group are are six couples.

[Brian D. Smith] [1240.26s] We call ourselves framily.

[Brian D. Smith] [1242.17s] You know?

[Brian D. Smith] [1242.65s] We're like we're we're friends, but we're also we're family.

[Brian D. Smith] [1245.86s] We we do life together.

[Brian D. Smith] [1248.45s] And so that you're right.

[Brian D. Smith] [1249.89s] We do diminish that and that and it's not acknowledged.

[Brian D. Smith] [1253.25s] And you mentioned one example of someone who kinda diminished your your relationship.

[Brian D. Smith] [1257.33s] Are they do you have other examples as well?

[Hannah Rumsey] [1260.77s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1261.17s] And it's it's a lot of small I'm doing air quotes, small moments

[Brian D. Smith] [1267.55s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1268.75s] That aren't so small.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1271.63s] But I had this friend at the time that I mean, this experience taught me that we weren't as close as I thought, because she treated it so terribly.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1282.47s] But, like, for instance, I I think Lauren had been dead about a week.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1288.23s] Like, it was literally had just happened.

[Brian D. Smith] [1290.78s] And I

[Hannah Rumsey] [1290.94s] was at this other friend's apartment, and I was crying and telling her about it.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1295.35s] And she just kinda looked at me and was like, why haven't I heard about this friend?

[Hannah Rumsey] [1300.54s] Why didn't you tell me about Lauren?

[Hannah Rumsey] [1303.02s] And I was like, what do you mean?

[Hannah Rumsey] [1304.86s] And she was like, I just feel like I feel like if she meant so much to you, I should know who she is.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1309.10s] Like, I've literally never heard of her.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1312.06s] So, like, framing it, like, because I hadn't told her.

[Brian D. Smith] [1316.46s] Yeah,

[Hannah Rumsey] [1316.78s] then that friendship must not be important and I was like what like I don't tell everybody about everybody all the time right right like it.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1326.13s] It was just such a bizarre response that I still don't quite understand.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1331.25s] But, like, it was also diminishing, and it was like, well, she can't possibly have meant that much to you.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1335.65s] Like, you must be overreacting.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1337.41s] It's like what she was implying.

[Brian D. Smith] [1339.25s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [1339.65s] Well, you know, it it's funny you say small, but, you know, I I call it death by a thousand cuts.

[Brian D. Smith] [1345.17s] It's like these little things that really add up where people are dismissing your your your grief.

[Brian D. Smith] [1351.41s] And one of the things that I've realized about grief is it's really important to have our grief witnessed.

[Brian D. Smith] [1357.10s] It's really important to have our grief acknowledged.

[Brian D. Smith] [1360.40s] And people do it with all types of grief.

[Brian D. Smith] [1362.56s] They they'll they'll do it, you know, sometimes unintentionally, I guess, but, you know, someone might lose a child, and they might say something like, well, you're young.

[Brian D. Smith] [1370.00s] You would have another child.

[Brian D. Smith] [1371.20s] Or, you know, they lose a spouse and say, you could, you know, you could always marry, you know, you could always get married again.

[Brian D. Smith] [1377.26s] And with a friend, you know, it's kinda like, well, they were just a friend.

[Brian D. Smith] [1381.49s] Right?

[Brian D. Smith] [1381.73s] They weren't they weren't like a blood relative, so it really shouldn't matter that much to you.

[Brian D. Smith] [1385.97s] So I your your organization and your and your podcast, just that acknowledgment for people, I'm sure, is is very helpful.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1395.76s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1396.24s] I I hope so because that's the crux of what I want people to feel, if they ever stumble across me or my content or or friends missing friends is, oh my gosh.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1409.32s] My grief is valid.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1411.39s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1412.04s] Because every day in a thousand different ways, like you're saying, the thousand mini cuts, we are told that it's not.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1419.59s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1419.91s] And, like, that disenfranchisement gets internalized.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1425.83s] And, like, I was having all these doubts in my head, like, because I'm literally told by another friend and other other people, like, are you sure you were as close as you thought?

[Hannah Rumsey] [1434.88s] And so then I'm questioning myself, like, oh my god.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1437.20s] Am I, like, making this a bigger deal?

[Hannah Rumsey] [1439.44s] Like, what?

[Hannah Rumsey] [1440.48s] Like, just questioning myself.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1443.77s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1444.24s] And that is like, all of that is feeding into a feeling of, like, oh, my grief isn't valid, and my love isn't real.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1455.63s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1456.35s] And I don't want anyone else to feel that way.

[Brian D. Smith] [1459.55s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [1459.87s] Well, that's the thing.

[Brian D. Smith] [1460.75s] You know, when we go through grief, it's a hard enough thing to go through if it's if it's not complicated by by other, you know, factors.

[Brian D. Smith] [1469.38s] You know, just just losing that person and missing them and coming to grips with how our relationship with them, you know, has has changed.

[Brian D. Smith] [1477.64s] But then to have your grief, as you said, dismissed, then that starts to cause you to have internal dissonance where, as you said, okay.

[Brian D. Smith] [1486.84s] Maybe my grief isn't really real.

[Brian D. Smith] [1488.76s] Maybe I maybe I'm overreacting.

[Brian D. Smith] [1490.28s] Maybe I don't have the right to have these feelings.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1492.59s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1495.31s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1495.95s] And what's wild is that, like, while I'm having all those thoughts, when I finally started talking about it, in my podcast and talking to other people, they were telling me their doubts, and they were the same thoughts I was having.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1512.55s] And so I feel like it's actually incredibly common for people who had lost friends and are getting dismissed to have these thoughts, and yet we're all having them separately on our own quietly.

[Brian D. Smith] [1526.53s] Right.

[Brian D. Smith] [1527.01s] Right.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1527.64s] And I'm like, no.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1528.45s] We need to talk about it.

[Brian D. Smith] [1530.45s] It's so important to have that validation that that, as you said, that just to have your have your feelings validated, to know that I yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [1538.13s] This is a common human experience.

[Brian D. Smith] [1539.89s] It's not just me that that's going through this.

[Brian D. Smith] [1542.69s] So tell me about your project 42 of summer.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1546.69s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1547.25s] So in 2020, you know, obviously, when the pandemic started, I took a, storytelling class.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1558.17s] And we started with, it had three levels.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1562.17s] We started with the five minute story, and then we turned it into a twenty minute story and then a one hour show.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1567.43s] And I wrote mine about my friendship and grief, of Lauren.

[Brian D. Smith] [1573.19s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1573.75s] And I was so grateful for those baby steps because at first, I was reading a five minute story, and I was bawling and could barely get through it.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1581.44s] And it was like I needed to take those small steps to work towards having a one hour show.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1589.13s] And then when I performed the one hour show on Zoom, and my family and friends all came because it was COVID and they had nothing else to do, so I had a big audience, which was the witnessing that you're talking about.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1605.65s] Like, it needs to be witnessed.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1607.73s] And I kind of had stumbled upon this.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1610.38s] Like, I didn't think, how do I wanna be witnessed?

[Hannah Rumsey] [1612.46s] Oh, yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1612.70s] I'll do this.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1613.02s] And then I'll invite my friends and family, then they'll have to witness me.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1615.49s] It just kind of, like, happened to happen that way.

[Brian D. Smith] [1617.82s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1618.06s] And then afterwards, like, just the light I felt so much lighter because I had just been witnessed by the most important people in my life.

[Brian D. Smith] [1627.38s] Wow.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1628.34s] Which, like, you have to go searching for that, unfortunately.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1631.62s] Like, it's hard to actually get that in everyday life.

[Brian D. Smith] [1634.62s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [1634.93s] So what's what is this is it a, how do you perform the show?

[Hannah Rumsey] [1641.97s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1642.38s] So it's the show is, I have a through line first of the present day where I'm, acting out, kind of little scenes Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1656.53s] Where I am experiencing grief in everyday life.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1660.21s] And, for example, I in one scene, I I'm invited to a Halloween party.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1667.82s] And my and this is real.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1669.17s] My costume was joy from inside out even though it's ironic because I was sad.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1676.21s] And, like, I'm talking to, this other young woman, and she's telling me how she's best friends with this other girl.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1684.89s] And they've been together every year since kindergarten, and they'll be friends forever.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1688.25s] And I get triggered, and I'm like, in my head, I don't say this out loud, I'm like, I don't wanna hear about your friend.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1694.69s] Like, I can't hear about other people's happiness.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1699.58s] So, like, all these little moments where, like, the grief is just keeps popping up and, like, holding me back, and, like, I'm kind of unable to move through it.

[Brian D. Smith] [1711.58s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1711.90s] And then as I'm going through those scenes, I'm also going back in time and weaving through our friendship that summer, and how I ultimately, after her service, go into her bedroom and find a box.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1726.08s] And in the box are what we called train letters.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1730.94s] And those it's an interlocking tradition where when you leave, you give everyone goodbye letters, but we called them train letters because it was like you read them on the train going home.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1741.58s] And I opened the box, and I went through the letters to try to find mine, and I found it all the way at the bottom of the pile.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1748.86s] It was the very last letter.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1751.49s] And the thought I have when I see the letter at the bottom is, at first, a crushing sadness that she put my letter in the box and then never looked at it again.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1764.17s] And it's actually taken me literally ten years to actually see the new perspective that our friendship was so current and ongoing that she didn't need to read the letter every day to remind herself.

[Brian D. Smith] [1780.42s] That I actually just got chills when you said that.

[Brian D. Smith] [1783.07s] That is such a beautiful and important shift.

[Brian D. Smith] [1787.71s] One of the things that when I'm when I work with clients is, I'm like, everything is about perspective.

[Brian D. Smith] [1792.91s] Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [1793.23s] And we tell ourselves stories.

[Brian D. Smith] [1795.47s] And a lot of times, we tell ourselves stories that are actually damaging to ourselves that you know?

[Brian D. Smith] [1800.75s] So you could have the perspective, oh, my letter was the least important letter.

[Brian D. Smith] [1805.10s] She put it in the box, and she never pulled it out again.

[Brian D. Smith] [1807.89s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1808.30s] But

[Brian D. Smith] [1808.46s] it's just as valid to say she didn't need to pull it out because our friendship was was fresh and was current, as you just said.

[Brian D. Smith] [1815.17s] Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [1815.58s] So that that is a big step toward healing.

[Brian D. Smith] [1819.45s] Our grief is when we can start to make those shifts in perspective from, you know, that that negative thing that which is often oftentimes, for some reason, our first thought.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1829.22s] Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [1829.46s] It's it's the negative thing.

[Brian D. Smith] [1830.89s] It it wasn't that important to me or, you know, why didn't I tell everybody else about my my friend, Lauren?

[Brian D. Smith] [1837.38s] It's like Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [1839.22s] So, yeah, I love that.

[Brian D. Smith] [1840.89s] And and I I just wanna acknowledge that that shift that you made and how important that is, you know, for your healing.

[Brian D. Smith] [1846.54s] And I want people that are listening to understand that when you tell yourself a story, if it's if it's not helpful, then maybe don't tell yourself that story anymore.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1858.82s] So beautifully said.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1860.97s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1861.38s] I absolutely agree.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1862.82s] And what's amazing is that what helped me dis discover that, and I I believe that, you know, Lauren's still present, and I think her spirit helped me come to this conclusion Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1875.26s] Because I I was writing, and I actually wrote a scene imagining that I had died, and she was going through my bedroom.

[Brian D. Smith] [1882.54s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1882.78s] And I imagined what my room would have been like if she hadn't died, and it would be different.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1889.04s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1889.43s] Because now that she's died, her room her letter is in a place of honor.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1893.67s] Before she died, her letter was stuck in a ziplock baggie with other letters, And I imagine her finding that.

[Brian D. Smith] [1900.20s] That is wow.

[Brian D. Smith] [1901.88s] That's brilliant.

[Brian D. Smith] [1902.84s] That's awesome.

[Brian D. Smith] [1904.84s] That that's such a, again, such a healthy perspective.

[Brian D. Smith] [1908.28s] And that's you know, I was I was just talking with a friend earlier today about my friend Mike who passed and, you know, trying to get some advice as to how I can, you know, help with his family.

[Brian D. Smith] [1917.93s] And she's a bereavement expert, counselor, and stuff.

[Brian D. Smith] [1920.49s] And we were talking about, again, these ideas of shifting perspectives of of of our brains are are plastic.

[Brian D. Smith] [1928.70s] We can tell ourselves this story or we can tell ourselves that story.

[Brian D. Smith] [1932.46s] And what I think is very helpful, what do you and I believe our loved ones are still with us.

[Brian D. Smith] [1936.46s] I'm I'm glad to hear you believe that.

[Brian D. Smith] [1937.98s] I think it's a very healthy perspective.

[Brian D. Smith] [1940.06s] Whether you believe that or not, you can imagine.

[Brian D. Smith] [1942.30s] Okay?

[Brian D. Smith] [1943.23s] What if the word that the shoe was on the other foot?

[Brian D. Smith] [1945.63s] What would they find if they went to my bedroom at this time?

[Brian D. Smith] [1949.23s] And, yeah, that's that's really that's, again, that's a brilliant thing that that you did.

[Brian D. Smith] [1954.60s] And you can pass those types of things forward as you're helping people go, you know, go through their own grief as they, you know, come across the work that you're doing.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1963.85s] Thank you.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1964.57s] And I also do wanna acknowledge that, like, it can take time to get out of the fog first Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1971.36s] Before you can start doing those mental switches.

[Brian D. Smith] [1973.43s] Absolutely.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1974.71s] Probably at the first few years, I don't even think my brain would have been capable

[Brian D. Smith] [1978.32s] Right.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1978.63s] Of that.

[Hannah Rumsey] [1979.04s] So it did take it took time.

[Brian D. Smith] [1981.04s] It does.

[Brian D. Smith] [1981.99s] It does.

[Brian D. Smith] [1982.63s] It there is there is a very real thing.

[Brian D. Smith] [1985.81s] We call it grief fog, grief brain, whatever you wanna call it, you know, where there's that that initial shock that you talked about where you're you're just don't believe it.

[Brian D. Smith] [1995.33s] And a lot of people for the first even year, you know, they're like, I was walking around in a fog.

[Brian D. Smith] [2001.12s] They won't remember, you know, what's going on.

[Brian D. Smith] [2003.19s] People think they're losing their minds because they're like, I came into this room.

[Brian D. Smith] [2007.36s] I forgot what I came in here for.

[Brian D. Smith] [2009.43s] So those things are very real.

[Brian D. Smith] [2010.71s] So the shifts that we're talking about, again, we have to acknowledge they're not easy, and you're not gonna make them in the first six months.

[Brian D. Smith] [2018.25s] Probably not in the first year, maybe not in the first, you know, couple of years.

[Brian D. Smith] [2022.01s] But slowly over time, you know, you can start to make those shifts.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2027.33s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2027.72s] I I agree.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2028.61s] And I I also I think that while people can approach it from whatever avenue is best for them, storytelling and writing was what helped me.

[Brian D. Smith] [2039.72s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2039.96s] It was kind of my door into that.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2041.96s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2042.92s] Which might be the case for other people as well.

[Brian D. Smith] [2045.48s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2045.80s] I I believe it is for a lot of people.

[Brian D. Smith] [2048.28s] And and the thing is we are meaning making creatures.

[Brian D. Smith] [2054.59s] We Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [2054.98s] We are storytellers.

[Brian D. Smith] [2056.34s] We are meaning making.

[Brian D. Smith] [2057.94s] And, I was talking with the client just the other day, and she's like, you know, I keep trying to find meaning in this.

[Brian D. Smith] [2062.90s] I'm like, stop beating yourself up for that because that's what we do.

[Brian D. Smith] [2067.07s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2067.55s] So you're you're going to find some meaning in it.

[Brian D. Smith] [2070.24s] Even if people convince themselves that the meaning is there is no meaning, that everything is just random.

[Brian D. Smith] [2075.84s] But we're we are going to tell ourselves one story or another, and I and I tell people, try on different stories like you try on a shirt and see which story Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2084.58s] Fits, which one works for you, which one makes you feel comfortable.

[Brian D. Smith] [2088.74s] You don't have to carry that initial story.

[Brian D. Smith] [2090.82s] You don't have to carry the the one that you that you first came to.

[Brian D. Smith] [2094.02s] Like, my letter's not valued where you you flipped it in its head.

[Brian D. Smith] [2098.39s] And and the interesting thing is the facts don't change.

[Brian D. Smith] [2101.75s] The the letter was still at the bottom of the box.

[Brian D. Smith] [2104.07s] Right?

[Brian D. Smith] [2104.71s] That is that is the objective fact.

[Brian D. Smith] [2106.95s] But the story we tell ourselves about it can be very different.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2111.78s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2112.59s] I it's amazing how prominent stories are in this.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2118.11s] And I really learned that when I did David Kessler's, grief education program a couple months ago.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2124.34s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2124.59s] He had a whole class on the stories we tell ourselves, and it was, like, mind opening.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2130.48s] I was like, wow.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2131.60s] And he was even like, there's so many ways to approach dismantling these unhealthy stories, but one was, like, kind of questioning it almost in, like, a fake court of law

[Brian D. Smith] [2143.01s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2143.24s] And being like, okay.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2144.05s] Can you prove that it's an undeniable fact that, like, you know, the perspective you have is true?

[Hannah Rumsey] [2149.57s] And then you kind of realize, like, oh, wait.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2151.57s] No.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2151.80s] It's it I can't.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2153.61s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2154.09s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2154.97s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2155.05s] That's the first question always to me when when I I if you have a if you have a thought, the first question is, is this is this true?

[Brian D. Smith] [2162.49s] Do I know this to be a fact?

[Brian D. Smith] [2164.25s] You know?

[Brian D. Smith] [2164.89s] Because many so many times we'll assign intent or motive to something.

[Brian D. Smith] [2169.39s] So it might be true that somebody said a certain thing or did a certain thing, and we'll say, well, what they meant was, you know, this.

[Brian D. Smith] [2177.24s] And that part of it may or may not be true.

[Brian D. Smith] [2180.20s] So questions, assumptions is is very, very important, you know, as we're as we are telling ourselves these stories.

[Brian D. Smith] [2186.52s] So how important was I in this person's life?

[Brian D. Smith] [2188.60s] How important were they in my life?

[Brian D. Smith] [2191.16s] And and, again, it's I just wanna commend you for coming to these, I think, really healthy ways of looking at it.

[Brian D. Smith] [2199.15s] So you you mentioned earlier that you feel like Lauren is still with you.

[Brian D. Smith] [2202.99s] Do you feel like I mean, she's made a huge impact on your life.

[Brian D. Smith] [2206.11s] Do you think this is something that was planned, or what are your thoughts on on that from from a spiritual perspective?

[Hannah Rumsey] [2213.88s] Do you mean, like, her death was planned, or what do you mean?

[Brian D. Smith] [2216.20s] Or your your relationship in general.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2219.32s] Oh, yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2221.00s] That's interesting.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2221.88s] I I don't actually know my beliefs on that, whether, like, our our connection was planned beforehand, by fate or whatever you wanna call it.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2235.97s] That I don't know.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2237.97s] But I do definitely like, I have had really intense signs from her Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2249.06s] On several occasions that, to me, feel undeniable and have helped, like, reinforce the feeling that, like, she's there.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2255.99s] It's just, you know, there's communication barrier between

[Brian D. Smith] [2259.60s] me and

[Hannah Rumsey] [2259.91s] the other side in some of those moments.

[Brian D. Smith] [2262.56s] So tell me about one of the signs.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2265.36s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2265.91s] So okay, so I'm trying to think of the kind of the best one to share.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2272.89s] Well, one one sign is that it was, well, first thing about signs, like, from what I've learned is that the timing and the feeling is really important.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2285.88s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2287.80s] So it was New Year's Eve.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2289.16s] I'm pretty sure it was two years after she died, so it was super fresh.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2294.84s] And I was on the train to a party in Chicago feeling sad, which was the status quo at the time and thinking about her and just how like whoop dee doo another year that she won't see was like the thoughts I was having.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2313.89s] And then my phone in my purse started buzzing.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2318.14s] But it was, like, not a notification buzz.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2320.61s] It was like a Morse code buzz.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2324.30s] And I was like, that's weird.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2325.38s] And I looked, and there was no notifications, and then I kind of dropped it.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2328.90s] And then it was going again, and I had the thought or the feeling of, like, Lauren?

[Hannah Rumsey] [2335.14s] Like, is that you?

[Hannah Rumsey] [2336.26s] And then it started, like, buzzing, like, crazy, like, like, in response.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2342.86s] And then I I was the person, you know, talking to my phone on the train that night.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2349.26s] I don't know if what people were thinking.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2351.48s] But,

[Brian D. Smith] [2352.12s] and

[Hannah Rumsey] [2352.28s] then I was started asking her questions.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2354.44s] I you know, looking at my phone, asking her questions, and it would be silent as I asked questions.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2359.24s] And when I finished the question, it would respond

[Brian D. Smith] [2361.48s] Oh, wow.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2361.96s] Like Morse code.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2364.41s] And I remember being so frustrated because I couldn't understand what she was saying.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2368.72s] Like, it I was just buzzing.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2370.72s] And then I asked a few questions, and it's funny because it's like you think you'll have a million questions, but, like, the most important is, like, are you at peace?

[Hannah Rumsey] [2378.29s] And then you kinda run out of questions.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2381.97s] And then it was silent for a while, and we were both silent.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2384.61s] And then I got off the train, and I had this sudden panic.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2387.81s] And I was like, oh my god.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2388.85s] Because it hadn't buzzed in a while.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2390.05s] I was like, oh my god.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2390.85s] Oh my god.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2391.41s] Don't leave me.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2392.41s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2392.82s] And then it buzzed three times.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2396.34s] And I heard, I'm still here.

[Brian D. Smith] [2398.82s] Oh, wow.

[Brian D. Smith] [2400.89s] And

[Hannah Rumsey] [2401.14s] so that to me, that whole interaction felt like a sign from her, and, like, I was sort of able to have a conversation.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2409.02s] And, yeah, that was that's one, but I've had others as well.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2415.34s] But I'm so grateful for anything that I can I'll take anything I can get.

[Brian D. Smith] [2421.03s] So when you said you heard I'm Still Here, was that in your head, or was it in through the phone that came through the phone?

[Hannah Rumsey] [2426.55s] Oh, it was in my head.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2427.74s] Okay.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2428.07s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2428.47s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2429.03s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2429.27s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2430.27s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2430.51s] That's that's amazing.

[Brian D. Smith] [2432.11s] You know, it's really interesting for me anyway.

[Brian D. Smith] [2435.15s] I was just talking with someone earlier today about, you know, getting electronic communications, and, I interviewed a guy pretty recently.

[Brian D. Smith] [2442.99s] He did a a a movie called Calling Earth, and it's it's all about ITCs or instrument transcommunications, electronic voice phenomenons, stuff like that.

[Brian D. Smith] [2452.86s] This stuff is very real.

[Brian D. Smith] [2454.22s] It's very, very well documented.

[Brian D. Smith] [2455.91s] My daughter has communicated to me through my phone in various ways too.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2459.84s] Oh.

[Brian D. Smith] [2460.48s] And so some people think that, you know, we're gonna be able to do this with with AI, and that's kind of one of the big debates, you know, right now.

[Brian D. Smith] [2467.68s] But, you know, when you tell me that, you know, about about Lauren communicating that way, I've I've heard I'm I it's amazing.

[Brian D. Smith] [2476.59s] It always still amazes me, but Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [2478.59s] I interviewed a woman whose husband had passed away, and he started sending her messages through WhatsApp.

[Brian D. Smith] [2483.72s] And Wow.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2484.68s] And I

[Brian D. Smith] [2484.91s] was just talking to a client the other day, and she doesn't really believe in science.

[Brian D. Smith] [2488.48s] And she goes, yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2490.00s] I got, an Instagram notification from my husband that he had, you know, made a post or something.

[Brian D. Smith] [2495.44s] And when she went there, it was, like, blank, but she did have the notification.

[Brian D. Smith] [2499.34s] And and she and her daughters were trying to explain it because we did that.

[Brian D. Smith] [2502.39s] We're how did this happen?

[Brian D. Smith] [2503.82s] And it's like Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2504.63s] So it's well, maybe they got his phone number.

[Brian D. Smith] [2506.14s] It's like but they wouldn't have his account.

[Brian D. Smith] [2508.22s] You know?

[Brian D. Smith] [2508.55s] It's like so these things, they definitely, you know, do happen.

[Brian D. Smith] [2512.47s] And I'm and the fact that you acknowledge that that I could tell that that was a big relief for you just hearing from her.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2520.47s] It's a huge relief.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2521.75s] And, yeah, it's it's actually, it's so incredibly comforting to hear that there's so many stories like this, and I've I've heard several.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2529.86s] And it, yeah, kind of just, like, reaffirms that it's real.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2534.01s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2534.49s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2535.14s] And that's and that goes back to our thing earlier about one of the reasons why it's important for things to be witnessed because if it just happens to us and it's one off, we start trying to explain it away, and we start saying, you know, you know, we'll we'll come up with all kinds of things.

[Brian D. Smith] [2548.77s] Right?

[Brian D. Smith] [2549.97s] But if we hear that it's happening to other people, also, that that tends to validate that experience even even for ourselves.

[Brian D. Smith] [2557.74s] You know, I my daughter, the one that's craziest to me, because there's so many, but I, you know, have a podcast, obviously.

[Brian D. Smith] [2565.74s] And, one day, I looked at my podcast app on my phone.

[Brian D. Smith] [2568.57s] I think I was using Apple Podcasts at the time.

[Brian D. Smith] [2571.21s] And all of the podcast cover art had changed to this picture of Shana.

[Brian D. Smith] [2576.25s] And it's one of my favorite pictures of her.

[Brian D. Smith] [2577.85s] She's, like, two years old, and she's building with these big giant LEGO blocks, and she's I think she was kneeling.

[Brian D. Smith] [2583.53s] And And the blocks were, like, up over her hedge.

[Brian D. Smith] [2585.44s] And we walked in the dining room, and they're like, how did she do that?

[Brian D. Smith] [2588.89s] But all of the podcast cover art for every episode had changed to that.

[Brian D. Smith] [2593.61s] And I'm like Oh

[Hannah Rumsey] [2594.80s] my gosh.

[Brian D. Smith] [2596.10s] Okay.

[Brian D. Smith] [2596.42s] This is weird.

[Brian D. Smith] [2597.54s] How did this happen?

[Brian D. Smith] [2599.06s] I get on my computer, and I look at my my Buzzsprout feed, and the the cover art was all normal there.

[Brian D. Smith] [2604.58s] It was it was normal everywhere else.

[Brian D. Smith] [2606.10s] It was only on my phone that they had all changed.

[Brian D. Smith] [2609.24s] And I'm glad I thought to take a screenshot of it because if someone told me this story, I would not believe it.

[Brian D. Smith] [2615.24s] And then they went back.

[Brian D. Smith] [2617.09s] And, you know, I'm like and I'm an engineer, and I have and I've worked in IT for a long time.

[Brian D. Smith] [2621.48s] I'm like, how did that happen?

[Brian D. Smith] [2623.92s] How did how did it change to that particular picture, you know, on every single not just one episode, but every episode

[Hannah Rumsey] [2632.40s] Wow.

[Brian D. Smith] [2633.12s] And then change back.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2636.68s] Oh my gosh.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2637.39s] I got chills.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2638.28s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2639.07s] Wow.

[Brian D. Smith] [2640.20s] So it's I guess it that's why, you know, again, the work that you're doing is so important that people can can share these things.

[Brian D. Smith] [2647.55s] And, and another thing I I wanna go back to when it comes to the friends, and this I'm trying to jump it back, but I I wanna cover this because you said it earlier.

[Brian D. Smith] [2657.00s] There are people that we find that we think are going to step up and and be there for us, and then we there are people that we find that don't.

[Brian D. Smith] [2665.57s] Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [2665.80s] I think you you mentioned something like that.

[Brian D. Smith] [2667.57s] So did that happen for you?

[Hannah Rumsey] [2671.41s] Yes.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2673.95s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2674.19s] And it was with one particular friend and I would never, like, oust her or anything.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2680.11s] But yeah, I just, you know, it's like when you're at your lowest and you really need someone's support is when you kind of see kind of the true measure of of their ability to support.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2695.99s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2697.35s] And there were, like, several instances where she was not helpful and even cruel, and jealous of this friend who had died.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2711.18s] And instead of, like, being compassionate, she was jealous that that she had existed.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2715.34s] And it was just, like, wow.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2717.18s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2718.14s] But, yeah, it's and I've heard this from so many people that sometimes you're, like, shocked by who steps up and who, like, does not.

[Brian D. Smith] [2725.82s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2726.22s] And it changes relationships, unfortunately.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2729.59s] Like, it can end relationships.

[Brian D. Smith] [2732.07s] It can.

[Brian D. Smith] [2733.11s] And and, again, I wanted to I wanted to talk about that because, first of all, when it happens to us, you know, we can be surprised.

[Brian D. Smith] [2741.19s] We can we can take it personally.

[Brian D. Smith] [2743.35s] And given some distance now, for me, it's been ten years, I'm like, I don't hold any animosity to those people.

[Brian D. Smith] [2750.84s] I just I look at it as, like, I look at people skilled or unskilled, and they're just not skilled.

[Brian D. Smith] [2755.80s] It's it's not that they had bad intentions, bad motives, that they don't love me or care for me.

[Brian D. Smith] [2761.68s] It's just that they weren't able to handle it for whatever reason.

[Brian D. Smith] [2764.24s] Some people don't like being around people who are sad.

[Brian D. Smith] [2766.56s] It makes them feel uncomfortable.

[Brian D. Smith] [2768.40s] They don't know what to say, so they decide not to say anything.

[Brian D. Smith] [2772.64s] There's something about sometimes loss can feel contagious.

[Brian D. Smith] [2775.89s] It's like, oh, if this happened to you, you're kinda icky because, you know, bad things are happening around you.

[Brian D. Smith] [2781.80s] So there's all kinds of things that people go through, and so there's that.

[Brian D. Smith] [2786.36s] So I wanted, you know, put that out there for people to understand that could happen to you.

[Brian D. Smith] [2789.66s] But there's also those pleasant surprises, the people who step up that you didn't think were gonna be there.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2797.18s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2798.06s] That's true.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2798.70s] And sometimes it's like a stranger or your trumpet student's mother or, like, you know, like, yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2807.74s] It's it often totally surprises you.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2810.22s] And I I love how you describe that, like skilled versus unskilled as far as dealing with death and grief.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2816.90s] Because there's a lot of days where I still feel petty and angry Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2822.26s] Towards people who said things that weren't helpful.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2825.86s] But, yeah, that what you said is is much more true and much more healthy and mature.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2832.02s] And And I'm I'm still that's I'm still working on that.

[Brian D. Smith] [2837.51s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2837.84s] It's it's a process.

[Brian D. Smith] [2838.88s] And and it's not I I tell my clients, it's not fair that we, the person in grief, has to be the person giving grace to to other people.

[Brian D. Smith] [2846.77s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2847.25s] Because we are going through, and we are we are so, you know, spending energy and stuff that, you know, now I gotta now I have to forgive this person for being an idiot.

[Brian D. Smith] [2857.97s] But, if you can get there, it's it it can be it's very helpful.

[Brian D. Smith] [2862.14s] And like I said, you know, I I wasn't that way at first.

[Brian D. Smith] [2864.63s] I have, you know, a couple people that just, like, literally, like, disappeared.

[Brian D. Smith] [2869.18s] And I'm like, wow.

[Brian D. Smith] [2870.22s] You know?

[Brian D. Smith] [2870.78s] I I would not expect this.

[Brian D. Smith] [2873.74s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [2874.07s] But, you know, it's just something I choose.

[Brian D. Smith] [2876.37s] I've chosen over the years, and it doesn't happen overnight, to just not focus on that.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2882.05s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2882.45s] That's beautiful.

[Brian D. Smith] [2884.05s] So, Hannah, tell me about your podcast.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2888.29s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2888.77s] So I I thought of doing a podcast.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2894.24s] I think it was 2021.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2895.85s] It was in the middle of the pandemic.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2897.85s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2899.37s] And I remember the name Friends Missing Friends just kind of came to me.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2904.37s] And I even like workshopped other names and ended up just sticking with the first one.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2909.89s] But I really wanted it.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2912.29s] It came from almost a necessity to talk about it and to talk to people.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2917.74s] And I really wanted to have these deep conversations.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2922.38s] And I kind of and I say this jokingly, even though it's kind of true, is that it can be a much easier ask to ask someone, hey.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2929.93s] Do you wanna talk on my podcast than to say, hey.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2932.25s] Do you wanna talk about death for an hour?

[Hannah Rumsey] [2935.29s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2935.61s] Like, I don't know.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2936.49s] I just I get access to conversations that I would not have otherwise had access to.

[Brian D. Smith] [2941.61s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2942.73s] And the healing I I feel like I've healed so much just talking to other people and learning like, oh, wow.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2950.30s] So many other people are having the same doubts, the same struggles, you know, the same thoughts.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2958.45s] And I I also, like, I want to bring that realization to others as well.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2963.65s] I want other people to

[Brian D. Smith] [2965.17s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2965.65s] Feel less alone.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2966.61s] That's the goal.

[Brian D. Smith] [2968.37s] So you have, who are your guests?

[Brian D. Smith] [2970.61s] Are they are they people who have lost friends or are there other people that you have on?

[Hannah Rumsey] [2976.95s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2977.18s] So I have, different people on.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2980.95s] So I I like to think of it as a Venn diagram where I talk about grief, I talk about friendship, and I talk about friend loss.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2988.97s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2989.13s] Because I feel like to really dig into friend loss, it helps to also touch on the others even as separate entities.

[Brian D. Smith] [2996.57s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2997.69s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [2998.01s] So I have some episodes where I just talk about friendship, some episodes where I just talk about grief, and I've had some grief experts, on and and then definitely times where I talk to people who have lost friends, and they tell their story, and and we talk about it.

[Brian D. Smith] [3012.76s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [3013.07s] Interesting.

[Brian D. Smith] [3014.04s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [3014.52s] And and, friendship, you know, is interesting, I think, in today's society because I know there's, like, an epidemic of loneliness.

[Brian D. Smith] [3023.80s] Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [3024.36s] And and people are trying to figure out friendships, and how do I find friends, and how do I keep friends?

[Brian D. Smith] [3030.30s] So I do you talk about things like that as well?

[Hannah Rumsey] [3033.18s] I do.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3033.91s] Yes.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3034.39s] And I often reference the book that I highly recommend to anyone who wants to learn more about friendship and how to keep friends.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3042.06s] It's called Platonic by doctor Marissa g Franco.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3046.62s] And it's actually all about how to make and keep friends as an adult because it is hard.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3051.66s] And we're not crazy.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3053.26s] It is actually really hard.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3054.86s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3056.16s] Because when we're young, we're in an environment where, like school, where we're around people all the time and we see them every day, which is the environment of cultivating friendships.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3065.53s] And in adulthood, that can, a lot of times, be really hard to come by.

[Brian D. Smith] [3070.03s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3070.59s] And, so she talks about the effort it takes.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3073.47s] And she even, like, lays out steps, which, like, people like me who are shy, I need those steps.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3079.07s] That's, like, I need it laid out.

[Brian D. Smith] [3080.67s] Sounds great and so needed.

[Brian D. Smith] [3082.43s] My, my nephew who just graduated from college, so he's probably 22 or 23 Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [3088.61s] Just moved near where I am, a couple hours away from his family.

[Brian D. Smith] [3091.89s] And, you know, I was telling him, I said, you know, when I was when I was his age, we we worked in an office.

[Brian D. Smith] [3098.83s] You know?

[Brian D. Smith] [3099.07s] So you had office mates.

[Brian D. Smith] [3101.47s] People went to church, so you met people at church.

[Brian D. Smith] [3105.07s] You may have met maybe meet people at the gym, stuff like that.

[Brian D. Smith] [3108.51s] And now people you know, they're working from home.

[Brian D. Smith] [3111.15s] A lot of people are not going to church anymore.

[Brian D. Smith] [3114.43s] And I was like, it's it's gonna take effort.

[Brian D. Smith] [3117.78s] You know?

[Brian D. Smith] [3118.03s] And I was working with a client that I'm like, okay.

[Brian D. Smith] [3121.22s] Well, let's what are some things you can do?

[Brian D. Smith] [3122.91s] Now they can there's meetup groups.

[Brian D. Smith] [3124.43s] Right?

[Brian D. Smith] [3124.66s] So you can get on, you can do meetup, but it's going you can't just it just doesn't just happen naturally.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3132.12s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3132.68s] And it it that's absolutely right.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3136.36s] And, like, you have to put the effort in, and it's exhausting sometimes, but, like, it will pay the rewards will come back.

[Brian D. Smith] [3142.96s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3143.84s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3144.32s] Definitely.

[Brian D. Smith] [3145.13s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [3145.28s] Well, you mentioned the book.

[Brian D. Smith] [3146.32s] I was thinking, there's a guy, Johan, oh, shoot.

[Brian D. Smith] [3149.76s] I can't think of his last name.

[Brian D. Smith] [3150.57s] I think it's Hari.

[Brian D. Smith] [3151.44s] Johan, h a r I.

[Brian D. Smith] [3153.28s] But the book is called Lost Connections.

[Brian D. Smith] [3155.79s] And, my daughter's in the mental health field, and he just he was checking out, like, all the people on antidepressants and anti anxiety drugs and stuff.

[Brian D. Smith] [3164.99s] And they found that, you know, those things are not as effective as the the doctors would like you believe, especially over the long term.

[Brian D. Smith] [3172.43s] They do help some people, but they it calls it lost connections because it's like, when they would find people and just give them connections, a lot of people naturally kinda, you know, came out of some of that stuff.

[Brian D. Smith] [3184.23s] But we don't we don't have, you know, those connections a lot of times anymore.

[Brian D. Smith] [3189.11s] And we feel weird about, you know, being platonic friends, you know, ask and and I and I know, I think it's I think when male and female, it's not we're not as biologically different as people say we are.

[Brian D. Smith] [3202.55s] I think it's more socialization.

[Brian D. Smith] [3204.39s] But I think especially for guys, you know, asking another guy to do something is really hard.

[Brian D. Smith] [3209.51s] And I was listening to this podcast few days ago, and I was, the guy was saying I'd never heard this before.

[Brian D. Smith] [3215.49s] He goes, women a lot of times have, perpendicular relationships.

[Brian D. Smith] [3220.21s] They they sit and they look at each other.

[Brian D. Smith] [3221.73s] They talk face to face or or they talk to each other.

[Brian D. Smith] [3224.53s] Guys have parallel relationships.

[Brian D. Smith] [3226.13s] We'll we'll go do an event.

[Brian D. Smith] [3227.70s] So we'll go watch sports or and and so we're all looking at the TV.

[Brian D. Smith] [3233.07s] And I've noticed even when we're in relationships, like, at a party or something, guys typically talk about something else, not about themselves.

[Brian D. Smith] [3241.04s] And it can feel very weird for us to, you know, to share those things.

[Brian D. Smith] [3244.40s] So, yeah, that that part of talking about friendship, I think, is extremely important, and I love the way you describe that Venn diagram.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3254.41s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3254.89s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3255.28s] And I I do agree the way we're socialized is huge in how we approach friendships and and how we interact with each other.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3263.13s] And I wish I remember where I learned this, but I think loneliness is just as bad for our health as 15 cigarettes a day.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3273.74s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3274.46s] And I was like, crap.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3276.46s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3277.02s] Oh, no.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3279.02s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [3279.26s] I you know, it's funny because you said that.

[Brian D. Smith] [3281.50s] I just came across that, like, it was last week.

[Brian D. Smith] [3284.63s] I I was I was working on a book that I'm I'm writing about, you know, butt grief.

[Brian D. Smith] [3288.79s] That's what I write about.

[Brian D. Smith] [3289.91s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [3290.70s] And, yeah, I've I've ran across that exact same thing that, you know Wow.

[Brian D. Smith] [3294.30s] That that that lack of connection can be just as detrimental of your health as as smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

[Brian D. Smith] [3300.29s] It's it's something that's really built in, I think, to the human condition.

[Brian D. Smith] [3304.53s] And Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [3305.25s] So what you're what you're talking about is very, very important because when we lose that person who's so special to us, even as a friend, and sometimes maybe even especially as a friend Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [3317.46s] It can be difficult enough.

[Brian D. Smith] [3319.78s] And so I love what you're doing is giving people an outlet for that, giving people a place to go.

[Brian D. Smith] [3325.72s] Just by knowing that you have a podcast and knowing that you have these community groups, that validates it that it's it's really real.

[Brian D. Smith] [3332.68s] You know?

[Brian D. Smith] [3333.24s] What I'm feeling is a real loss.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3336.28s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3336.92s] Thank you so much.

[Brian D. Smith] [3338.39s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [3339.43s] So, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you would like to talk about?

[Hannah Rumsey] [3346.16s] Good question.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3355.17s] I guess one thing I just want to mention is that and this is honestly about grief in general

[Brian D. Smith] [3361.33s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3361.65s] Is that I feel like a lot of people are scared to bring up the person we've lost and are grieving because they think it'll make us sad.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3371.84s] But we're already sad.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3375.43s] Like, maybe not in that particular moment, but you can't really make us sad.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3379.59s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3379.84s] And it's actually at least what I've heard other people say and how I feel is I want to talk about her, and I would love to tell you about her friendship.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3390.75s] And I think that keeps a lot of people silent.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3394.64s] Like you said, people disappeared.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3396.07s] I think they're scared.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3398.64s] So, yeah, if you take one thing away from, like, how to support people, it's, you know, ask ask us about them.

[Brian D. Smith] [3406.47s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [3406.80s] Thank you for saying that.

[Brian D. Smith] [3408.16s] Can't say that enough.

[Brian D. Smith] [3409.11s] I think it's Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [3409.93s] It's extremely important.

[Brian D. Smith] [3410.81s] That's why whenever I'm interviewing someone who's on Because I've Lost Someone, the first thing I wanna do is ask you about about your loved one because Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [3417.93s] You know, first of all, I believe that I know that they're still here.

[Brian D. Smith] [3421.54s] And Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [3421.93s] We're here we're here to talk about Lauren, and we're here to talk about the the impact that Lauren not only had on your life, but continues to have on your life, you know, ten years later.

[Brian D. Smith] [3435.54s] And it and it's just truly amazing, you know, that sometimes we underestimate our our impact in the world.

[Brian D. Smith] [3443.30s] And this I love your, you know, your forty two days of summer.

[Brian D. Smith] [3446.34s] I love that that title because that brief time that you guys spent together physically

[Hannah Rumsey] [3453.84s] Mhmm.

[Brian D. Smith] [3454.07s] Led to the next six years, which has led to what's gonna impact you for the rest of your life.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3461.68s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3462.65s] Thank you for for saying that because that's also something I I want people to know is that I think, like, when you feel like your grief's not valid, you'll have excuses for why it's not valid in your head.

[Brian D. Smith] [3472.97s] Mhmm.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3474.01s] And one is like, oh, we didn't spend that much time together.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3477.11s] But it was only six weeks.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3478.32s] You know?

[Hannah Rumsey] [3478.95s] And I feel like with love, all love, I don't think time necessarily matters.

[Brian D. Smith] [3485.11s] Right.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3485.52s] And I it does not undercut the love that you have.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3488.56s] Your love is valid no matter how much time it was.

[Brian D. Smith] [3492.15s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [3492.47s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [3492.87s] That's great.

[Brian D. Smith] [3493.43s] That's a great way to end.

[Brian D. Smith] [3494.95s] So remind people, Hannah, of where they can reach you, where they can find your podcast and and find out more about you.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3502.55s] Yeah.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3502.95s] So my website is friendsmissingfriends.com.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3506.72s] I tried to make it easy so everything's the same.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3509.43s] Instagram is, friends missing friends, and my email is friendsmissingfriends@gmail.com.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3515.68s] I love getting emails even if you just wanna, you know, tell me about yourself, tell me about your loss.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3522.00s] Feel free to send me an email.

[Brian D. Smith] [3523.76s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [3524.00s] Well, again, thank you so much for being here today, and, really, thank you for what you're doing.

[Brian D. Smith] [3528.00s] I know there's a there's a real need for what you're doing.

[Brian D. Smith] [3530.96s] So, hopefully, someone listening to this will will reach out to you and and realize that, you know, if if you've lost a friend.

[Brian D. Smith] [3537.36s] And whether it was last week or ten years ago, that grief has to be processed and has to go somewhere.

[Brian D. Smith] [3543.84s] So it's it's never too late to to to process that.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3548.26s] Absolutely.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3548.90s] And thank you so much, and thank you for what you do with this podcast.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3552.10s] It's truly amazing.

[Brian D. Smith] [3553.62s] Yeah.

[Brian D. Smith] [3553.86s] Alright.

[Brian D. Smith] [3554.26s] Enjoy the rest of your afternoon.

[Hannah Rumsey] [3555.86s] Thank you so much.