The UNBELIEVABLE Beauty of Aging: Why Society is WRONG About Getting Older! EP 392

🌿 Imagine a world where aging isn't feared, but embraced as a source of wisdom and power. In this episode of *Grief 2 Growth*, host Brian Smith sits down with acclaimed author David W. Berner to explore the deep, often overlooked beauty of growing older.

David, an award-winning author of fiction, memoir, and creative nonfiction, discusses his latest book, Daylight Saving Time, a collection of essays on aging, art, and finding joy in life's later years. Together, we dive into how aging can be a profound journey of self-discovery, the role of art and literature in this process, and how society's stigma on aging holds us back from our full potential. 🌱

👂 Whether you're navigating aging yourself or supporting a loved one through it, this episode is a must-listen for anyone searching for meaning, wisdom, and solace at every stage of life. Join us as we unpack how to live "older well" and how the challenges we face along the way can become our greatest sources of strength.

🔗 After the show, continue the conversation with us at:
https://grief2growth.com/community

🔗 find David at https://www.davidwberner.com

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Transcript

[Speaker 1] [0.56s] Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be.
[Speaker 1] [17.18s] We feel like we've been buried.
[Speaker 1] [19.26s] But what if like a seed we've been planted and having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree.
[Speaker 1] [27.98s] Now, open your eyes, Open your eyes to this way of viewing life.
[Speaker 1] [33.21s] Come with me as we explore your true infinite eternal nature.
[Speaker 1] [38.89s] This is grief to growth.
[Speaker 1] [40.73s] And I am your host, Brian Smith.
[Speaker 1] [45.85s] Hey.
[Speaker 1] [46.17s] Welcome back to Grief to Growth where we explore life's deepest questions, who we are, why we're here, and how we can find meaning in the journey, and also where we're going.
[Speaker 1] [54.89s] So whether you're tuning in for the first time and you've been with us for a while, I'm glad you're here.
[Speaker 1] [58.73s] And today, I'm honored to welcome David w.
[Speaker 1] [61.68s] Berner.
[Speaker 1] [62.40s] David is an acclaimed award winning author whose work spans fiction, creative nonfiction, memoirs, short stories, and poetry.
[Speaker 1] [70.16s] With a career decorated by prestigious awards like the Eric Hoffer Book Award and the New York City Big Book Award, David has made a significant impact in the literary world.
[Speaker 1] [79.39s] And his latest book is Daylight Savings Time, essays on literature, art, and the power of growing older, and offers a contemplative and deeply personal exploration of the aging process.
[Speaker 1] [90.97s] In this episode, we'll dive into why David felt compelled to write about growing older, a topic that's often approached with trepidation, but here is embraced as a sense of our source of power and wisdom.
[Speaker 1] [101.93s] We'll discuss the role of art, literature, spirituality, and travel in aging, and why Daylight Saving Time speaks to readers of all ages, not just those in their later years.
[Speaker 1] [112.72s] David's reflections are not just about the process of aging, but about finding joy, solace, and meaning in every stage of life.
[Speaker 1] [120.02s] So join us as we explore these rich themes and more.
[Speaker 1] [123.14s] And after the episode, I invite you to continue the conversation with me and other listeners in our community space at grief to growth.com/community where you can engage further with the ideas shared today.
[Speaker 1] [134.29s] And with that, I wanna welcome David w.
[Speaker 1] [136.29s] Burner.
[Speaker 2] [137.81s] Brian, thank you.
[Speaker 2] [138.78s] Appreciate it.
[Speaker 2] [139.57s] So nice to be here, and nice to be on a, you sound like you've done radio before.
[Speaker 2] [144.78s] Your voice is, you know, melodic.
[Speaker 1] [149.17s] Thank you.
[Speaker 1] [149.57s] I appreciate that.
[Speaker 1] [150.93s] I have to tell you, getting started, when your your bio came across, my email, I was like, I really am excited about having this guy on.
[Speaker 1] [160.47s] I'm growing we're all growing older, but I'm I'm 63, you know, in in those years where I'm contemplating retirement stuff.
[Speaker 1] [168.56s] And I wanna start by saying, this is almost shame about growing older.
[Speaker 1] [173.44s] And it's funny because I will tell people sometimes I'm old, and people will say to me, you're not old.
[Speaker 1] [178.94s] You walk 6 miles a day.
[Speaker 1] [180.06s] I'm like, both things can be true.
[Speaker 1] [182.46s] Old people can do things.
[Speaker 1] [184.22s] So have you found there's kind of a, like, a stigma about growing older?
[Speaker 2] [187.81s] Well, that's a really good way to put it, though, with, you know, you you can do both.
[Speaker 2] [192.61s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [192.84s] There's certainly a stigma.
[Speaker 2] [194.28s] Our culture is we've all heard this a million times over, but it's a it's a culture of youth.
[Speaker 2] [199.33s] There's no question about that.
[Speaker 2] [200.69s] I mean, we've seen that in the presidential campaign here in America.
[Speaker 2] [203.73s] I mean, it's, you know, very much about that.
[Speaker 2] [207.89s] And we we you know, our our media, our culture, our society, our our, you know, entertainment, there's so much that's geared that way.
[Speaker 2] [217.17s] And, you know, I don't have an answer for that.
[Speaker 2] [219.34s] I'm not a sociologist.
[Speaker 2] [220.94s] I don't know why that is so.
[Speaker 2] [223.25s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [223.57s] Because in other cultures and many cultures around the world, elders are sort of revered.
[Speaker 2] [228.53s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [229.57s] And and you wonder why in America that's that's a different thing.
[Speaker 2] [235.33s] We kinda put our elders like, well, we're gonna move them over here for a while because we're kinda messing with our our vibe.
[Speaker 2] [242.29s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [243.09s] And, you know, even if you do that sort of metaphorically, you're I think we are kinda doing that.
[Speaker 2] [248.74s] So to answer your question, yeah, I do think there's a stigma.
[Speaker 2] [251.61s] I mean, you know, when I play golf, I walk.
[Speaker 2] [256.74s] And I I love the game because it's a very mental game, and I like that part of it.
[Speaker 2] [261.21s] But I I would say 90% of the time, I'm walking, and the 18 holes of golf is about 6 miles.
[Speaker 2] [268.14s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [268.78s] And, I don't think anything of it.
[Speaker 2] [271.74s] I mean, I'm tired, but I'm not debilitated.
[Speaker 1] [275.42s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [275.74s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [277.25s] And when I tell other people who are roughly my age that I walk, some will say, yeah.
[Speaker 2] [281.18s] Me too.
[Speaker 2] [281.65s] Or someone will say, what?
[Speaker 2] [282.46s] Are you out of your mind?
[Speaker 2] [283.81s] And I and I say, have you tried it?
[Speaker 2] [286.38s] Because I wonder if you've just sort of if your if your process is, oh, I'm old now, so I need to take a cart.
[Speaker 2] [296.56s] And that and that's just my call, but about anything.
[Speaker 2] [298.72s] Oh, I'm old now.
[Speaker 2] [299.52s] I need to do this, or I shouldn't do that because I'm old now.
[Speaker 2] [302.80s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [304.40s] I shouldn't try to do 20 push ups because, you know, I'm 65.
[Speaker 1] [308.40s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [308.81s] So, really, should I do that?
[Speaker 2] [310.56s] And then you kinda just say, well, no.
[Speaker 2] [312.81s] I can't do that because I'm 65.
[Speaker 2] [314.32s] Well, the truth is you probably can or at least you can get to it, right, if you work on it.
[Speaker 2] [320.07s] So I think culturally, we've been stigmatized.
[Speaker 2] [325.43s] And I mean, we as far as older people or whatever that means.
[Speaker 2] [329.03s] Because, you know, back in the in the in the turn of the century, the 1900 turn of the century, you know, old was 45, you know, and that is not the case now.
[Speaker 2] [338.94s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [340.06s] So, due to a lot of reasons and mostly medical, but, we just and we know things.
[Speaker 2] [345.74s] We know that smoking will kill you.
[Speaker 2] [347.39s] We know that, you know, if you eat McDonald's all day long for the rest of your life, you're probably gonna die young just because.
[Speaker 2] [354.43s] Not to say that you can't have a cigarette or you can't have a cigar now and then, maybe, but if you're gonna indulge, you're gonna hurt yourself, and you're gonna your lifetime is not gonna go.
[Speaker 2] [363.10s] So I got a your span is gonna be cut.
[Speaker 2] [365.25s] And we know that, so now we're older.
[Speaker 2] [367.01s] And, older Americans have a lot of power, these days, politically, you know, even culturally.
[Speaker 2] [375.42s] But I don't know if we use it, all that much as as best we could.
[Speaker 2] [380.21s] So, yeah, there is a stigma, and I think it's a matter of of sort of looking at it differently.
[Speaker 2] [387.49s] Not that I do it right all the time or not that, you know, I have all the answers.
[Speaker 2] [390.93s] You know, my my book data saving time is not about it's not a self help book.
[Speaker 2] [395.68s] It's a it's sort of a, hey.
[Speaker 2] [397.51s] This is what I'm thinking.
[Speaker 2] [399.44s] You know, maybe you ought to think like this too a little bit, or maybe you can take something from this and
[Speaker 1] [403.51s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [404.24s] Apply it to your world.
[Speaker 2] [406.69s] And, that's how I wanted to approach it.
[Speaker 2] [409.89s] I I am not an expert on aging.
[Speaker 2] [412.37s] I am not an expert on, you know, antiaging.
[Speaker 2] [416.21s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [417.33s] I I'm just, I'm just a person who was, you know, moving through the process just like everybody else.
[Speaker 2] [423.24s] And here's what I've seen, and here's what I've observed, and here's what I'm experiencing.
[Speaker 2] [428.51s] And maybe it can help us think about it differently and maybe, you know, get out of that stigma a little bit.
[Speaker 1] [435.29s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [435.61s] Well, I I agree with with a lot of what you said.
[Speaker 1] [438.57s] You know, it's really interesting to me.
[Speaker 1] [440.49s] Again, when we talk about, you know, being old, and old is a relative term, I will say to people sometimes, okay.
[Speaker 1] [447.29s] Well, people, you know, generation ago, 2 generations ago, died at 45.
[Speaker 1] [452.12s] We are objectively, you know, old compared to them.
[Speaker 1] [455.07s] Now people are also also living longer.
[Speaker 1] [457.15s] My parents are 8886, and they're they're both still in, you know, in relatively good health.
[Speaker 1] [463.64s] But when I when I say that I'm older people, it it kinda freaks them out.
[Speaker 1] [467.16s] You know?
[Speaker 1] [467.40s] And the reason one of the reasons is they're around my age, and they don't wanna admit that they're old.
[Speaker 1] [471.72s] So if I say I'm old, then they have to admit that they're old.
[Speaker 2] [475.48s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [475.88s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [476.28s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [476.52s] That's true.
[Speaker 2] [477.80s] And it is relative.
[Speaker 2] [478.92s] I mean, my, I had a grandfather who lived to be 91.
[Speaker 2] [483.15s] My in laws are both still alive.
[Speaker 2] [487.15s] You know, 86 and 92, I think they are, somewhere in there.
[Speaker 2] [492.33s] You know, they're not infirm.
[Speaker 2] [494.41s] I you know, and then I kinda walk 6 miles on the golf course, but they but they are, you know, they're pretty mobile.
[Speaker 2] [500.65s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [502.41s] And both of their minds are still pretty sharp.
[Speaker 2] [504.96s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [505.29s] Some of that's genetics.
[Speaker 2] [506.40s] Some of that's lifestyle.
[Speaker 2] [508.17s] Some of that's, you know, just pure determination.
[Speaker 2] [511.44s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [511.76s] Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna do certain things to make that work.
[Speaker 2] [514.88s] Like, I my, my father-in-law does puzzles all the time.
[Speaker 1] [520.02s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [520.18s] And I think that's helped him stay sharp.
[Speaker 2] [522.58s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [522.98s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [523.70s] And and I I think that we have to look at even those little tiny things like that.
[Speaker 2] [531.80s] But the the idea is, you know, it's not about just living older.
[Speaker 2] [535.80s] It's about living older well.
[Speaker 1] [538.27s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [538.60s] You know, it's about mentally and emotionally and physically and all that.
[Speaker 2] [543.90s] And, you know, there are hiccups along the way for all of us.
[Speaker 2] [546.30s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [546.70s] We have arguments with the people we love.
[Speaker 2] [549.26s] We have fallen in house with people we love.
[Speaker 2] [551.18s] We we, you know, lose a job.
[Speaker 2] [553.42s] We gain a job.
[Speaker 2] [554.54s] We, you know, you know, things that we wanna do don't don't transpire the way we want to and but that's it's gonna sound terribly cliche, but the cliche, but that's part of the journey.
[Speaker 2] [566.69s] I mean, that is.
[Speaker 2] [567.41s] I mean, the the ups and downs are part of the journey.
[Speaker 2] [569.74s] The heartaches are part of the journey.
[Speaker 2] [571.25s] The the the the the wonderful moments are part of a journey.
[Speaker 2] [575.95s] And there's no reason to think about that differently when you're older.
[Speaker 2] [579.31s] It's the same thing.
[Speaker 1] [580.91s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [581.47s] Circumstances might be different, but it's the same thing.
[Speaker 2] [584.59s] And, I I really through this book, through Daylight Saving Time, I I really wanted to show that, you know, we are all hoping for that extra hour.
[Speaker 2] [595.37s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [595.68s] And that's kinda what I mean by Daylight Saving Time.
[Speaker 2] [597.52s] We're hoping for that extra time.
[Speaker 2] [600.00s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [601.85s] But what are you gonna do with
[Speaker 1] [603.82s] it?
[Speaker 1] [603.90s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [604.54s] Now are you just gonna watch another Netflix series?
[Speaker 2] [607.34s] Or or what are you gonna do?
[Speaker 2] [608.38s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [608.86s] Which is okay, but, you know, what are you gonna do with that that time that you have left?
[Speaker 2] [613.90s] Well, you know, what how are you gonna process it?
[Speaker 2] [617.80s] And, I I believe that you have to take some risks, and that's also part of the journey too.
[Speaker 2] [626.61s] And those risks can be all kind of ways.
[Speaker 2] [629.64s] But I I think you've gotta gotta do that.
[Speaker 2] [632.81s] You know, I just started, after putting it off for a long time at the age of 67.
[Speaker 2] [638.65s] I just started going to a trainer, and I've been putting it off for a long time.
[Speaker 2] [643.61s] And, she kicks my butt, but I'm really happy that she's kicking my butt.
[Speaker 2] [651.16s] You know, it's not that I'm super out of shape.
[Speaker 2] [653.64s] I actually am fairly, you know, mobile and fairly agile for 67 year old.
[Speaker 2] [659.00s] I'm not I wouldn't call myself an athlete, but I think I get around better than a lot of other 67 year olds.
[Speaker 2] [664.48s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [665.20s] But I still don't feel like I could, I still feel like I could be better.
[Speaker 2] [669.60s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [669.84s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [670.24s] But that's my journey.
[Speaker 2] [671.36s] That doesn't mean everybody has to go get a trainer.
[Speaker 2] [674.08s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [674.56s] That's not what I'm saying.
[Speaker 1] [675.68s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [676.08s] But find that thing that that, you know, gives you a little bit of a boost, that gives you a little bit of a, you know, a moment of grace, some something like that, that will kinda lift you over the the stigma that you brought up before about, you know, oh, well, I'm old now.
[Speaker 2] [692.16s] I guess I can't do that anymore.
[Speaker 1] [694.96s] Time for a real quick break.
[Speaker 1] [696.24s] Make sure you like and subscribe.
[Speaker 1] [698.40s] Liking the video will show it to more people on YouTube.
[Speaker 1] [701.43s] And subscribe, you will make sure you get access to all my great content in the future.
[Speaker 1] [705.67s] And now back to the video.
[Speaker 1] [707.83s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [708.07s] Well, you it's a really interesting point you bring up because I think you as you mentioned, doing puzzles, for example.
[Speaker 1] [714.55s] My my father does puzzles.
[Speaker 1] [716.39s] I think he still does every single day, and he used to get 2 newspapers when they still had them, every day and do and do both of those puzzles.
[Speaker 1] [724.87s] My mother is still extremely active, and I you know?
[Speaker 1] [727.67s] And it's funny because everybody is trying to tell her to slow down.
[Speaker 1] [730.55s] And I was talking to her a little while ago, and I said, I think this was keeping you young is the fact she still travels.
[Speaker 1] [736.02s] She still does things that she probably shouldn't be doing, but I think it's better to to do that, to push yourself than to just sit in a chair and say, well, I'm I'm 88 now.
[Speaker 1] [745.46s] I can't do anything.
[Speaker 2] [746.82s] And I also think that people who are, you know, whatever older is, don't realize the capacity they still have
[Speaker 1] [753.94s] to do things.
[Speaker 1] [754.66s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [755.78s] They've been programmed to think that, oh, I'm not supposed to be doing that.
[Speaker 2] [760.36s] Well, the reality is, I mean, you see this you see these stories all the time.
[Speaker 2] [763.24s] You know, the 90 year old who runs the marathon.
[Speaker 2] [765.88s] You you see just yeah.
[Speaker 2] [767.48s] They're the outliers.
[Speaker 2] [768.43s] I get that.
[Speaker 2] [769.08s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [769.39s] But that should tell you something.
[Speaker 2] [772.88s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [773.36s] And, you know, I I I don't think you wanna get into a boxing ring with a 25 year old at 90.
[Speaker 2] [780.64s] You know, that's probably not a good plan.
[Speaker 2] [782.96s] But, you know, shadow boxing at 90, sure.
[Speaker 2] [788.18s] Maybe even, you know, getting in a ring with the right kind of rules and regulations with another 90 year old isn't a bad idea either.
[Speaker 2] [794.75s] I mean, I I don't you might not.
[Speaker 2] [796.26s] I mean, I don't understand why that is or, you know, that kind of thing.
[Speaker 2] [802.24s] I don't know if that's the greatest analogy in the world, but I, you know, I I think that those kinds of things are still available to us if we wrap our arms around it and go, okay.
[Speaker 2] [811.92s] What can I do with this?
[Speaker 2] [813.61s] You know, what can I do?
[Speaker 2] [814.64s] I mean, I didn't start writing, seriously writing.
[Speaker 2] [817.13s] I mean, I was always in journalism, but I never you know, it's funny.
[Speaker 2] [820.73s] I didn't really think of that as, like, the writing.
[Speaker 2] [822.88s] Well, I thought writing was different in my head.
[Speaker 2] [825.05s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [825.21s] But so journalism was always kinda writing, but I didn't really think about writing seriously in books until I was in my forties.
[Speaker 2] [832.59s] And, you know, for some people that would have been, like, the time to start thinking about, you know, the the, you know, the second half of your life or even the sec last third of your life.
[Speaker 2] [844.84s] And I, you know, started a whole different, you know, vocation at that time.
[Speaker 1] [849.79s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [850.27s] And I think a lot of people were still doing that.
[Speaker 2] [852.20s] I'm I'm not special with that.
[Speaker 2] [853.72s] I think a lot of people are, you know, reevaluating much more than they used to.
[Speaker 2] [857.67s] You know, the, the old days of being at the the job for 50 years and getting a gold watch, those days are long gone.
[Speaker 1] [865.19s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [865.83s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [866.79s] And in a way, it's kinda good because you can get very very set in your ways and set in your thoughts and set in your beliefs about yourself and your family and your life if you're stuck like that.
[Speaker 2] [878.24s] And I think that I think, yeah, that's a good thing.
[Speaker 2] [880.72s] It was nice to have pensions when there were pensions.
[Speaker 2] [882.96s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [883.44s] Those kinds of things are probably not a bad thing to think about.
[Speaker 2] [886.80s] But the reality is we set ourselves up to be to be sort of, you you know, walking down the road with the guardrails on.
[Speaker 2] [895.68s] You know, just saying, well, this is what you do.
[Speaker 2] [898.09s] I just keep doing this.
[Speaker 2] [899.13s] I keep going to the mill and working every day because that's what you do.
[Speaker 1] [902.57s] Right.
[Speaker 1] [902.88s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [904.49s] I just want people to to maybe just rethink that.
[Speaker 2] [908.57s] That's all.
[Speaker 1] [909.13s] So, I know you've written about speaking of writing, you've written about all different types of things written fiction.
[Speaker 1] [915.12s] What inspired you to write on the subject of growing older?
[Speaker 2] [919.76s] Well, it's probably a number of things, but the the certainly, the thing that kinda clicked it over was I had a mild heart attack in my fifties, that was exactly the same age as my dad's heart attack when he had it, which is kinda freaky.
[Speaker 2] [938.54s] And, my dad survived, and and he lives a pretty decent life for a lot of years after that, and hopefully, I'm doing the same thing.
[Speaker 2] [946.94s] But, you know, it it it I have to say it didn't necessarily scare me.
[Speaker 2] [952.99s] It just made me say, wow.
[Speaker 2] [955.78s] This yeah.
[Speaker 2] [956.66s] I guess I guess this is kind of like a finite thing, isn't it?
[Speaker 1] [960.58s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [960.90s] I'm not gonna be here forever for one reason or another.
[Speaker 2] [963.95s] Funny, I had a conversation with my son last night too.
[Speaker 2] [967.89s] He said he he he's a he used to be a chef years ago, but he's that lifestyle is just too much when you got a daughter and kids, and it's just too hard.
[Speaker 2] [975.97s] But he, he he still cooks, and he still makes things.
[Speaker 2] [979.41s] He was making, you know, £40 of tomatoes to make all these different sauces, and his wife's Italian.
[Speaker 2] [987.24s] So he he wanted to make these sauces, and he goes, I wanna make this my sauce.
[Speaker 2] [991.55s] I want it to be the thing that my daughter grows up and goes, remember dad's sauce?
[Speaker 2] [995.99s] Here's the recipe.
[Speaker 2] [997.03s] I'm gonna make that tonight.
[Speaker 2] [998.23s] He says, I want that to be sorta like, her her remembering me, you know, in a way.
[Speaker 2] [1005.75s] And I I thought that was really an interesting thought.
[Speaker 2] [1009.65s] And I thought about the same thing when I was when I had had the heart attack.
[Speaker 2] [1013.17s] I started thinking about, well, what what are they gonna take with them of me?
[Speaker 2] [1018.29s] And not because I was egotistical about it, but they're gonna take something because I was around in their life.
[Speaker 2] [1024.62s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [1026.59s] What is it?
[Speaker 2] [1027.15s] What's it gonna be?
[Speaker 2] [1029.71s] And, it it made me start thinking about, okay.
[Speaker 2] [1032.35s] Well, what are you gonna do with the rest of that time?
[Speaker 2] [1034.43s] With them, with you, with people you love, with your, you know, your your, things that make you happy, the things that challenge you.
[Speaker 2] [1042.49s] What what are you gonna do?
[Speaker 2] [1044.49s] So the heart attack was some of it.
[Speaker 2] [1047.45s] There's no question about that, and I and I even opened the book up with that with that story.
[Speaker 2] [1053.01s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1054.77s] Luckily, it was mild.
[Speaker 2] [1055.81s] Luckily, I had no damage.
[Speaker 2] [1056.93s] Luckily, I came out of it pretty good.
[Speaker 2] [1058.93s] It was a few weeks afterward, and I went on a 12 mile bike ride after that, and my doctor was mad.
[Speaker 2] [1066.04s] He said, really?
[Speaker 2] [1066.91s] And I'm like, well, I felt fine.
[Speaker 2] [1069.88s] He started laughing.
[Speaker 2] [1071.72s] He goes, well, you're lucky.
[Speaker 2] [1073.32s] He just thought that was pushing a little too early.
[Speaker 2] [1075.32s] It probably was.
[Speaker 2] [1076.60s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1077.98s] You know, 12 miles was in my world of biking is kinda low.
[Speaker 2] [1081.66s] You know, 20 miles is probably 25 is probably a good number for me these days.
[Speaker 2] [1087.10s] But to do 12, you know, a few weeks after the heart attack, he thought I was a little out of my mind.
[Speaker 2] [1091.55s] But I felt pretty and I probably was.
[Speaker 2] [1093.63s] But I felt pretty good.
[Speaker 2] [1095.14s] So I'm I'm glad I didn't keel over.
[Speaker 2] [1098.83s] But, I was lucky enough to to not have any damage.
[Speaker 2] [1101.59s] I you know, it was a mild one.
[Speaker 2] [1103.07s] It was I noticed that something was off.
[Speaker 2] [1106.03s] And but to have it on the same year as my father, same age as he was when he had his was a little little freaky.
[Speaker 2] [1114.88s] And I asked the doctor about that, and he said, you see how genetics do play a huge part in this kind of thing.
[Speaker 1] [1122.57s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1122.81s] He says, you probably have a better diet than your dad did.
[Speaker 2] [1126.01s] I said, yeah.
[Speaker 2] [1126.57s] My dad would sit down and eat a bag of Oreos on a Saturday night sometimes.
[Speaker 2] [1130.01s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [1130.33s] I I don't do that.
[Speaker 2] [1131.77s] I said, but, you know, I'm not perfect.
[Speaker 2] [1134.09s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [1137.52s] But he says genetics are pretty pretty strong, and he says that this is probably part of that.
[Speaker 2] [1144.24s] And, so here I am.
[Speaker 2] [1146.72s] But that that kinda kicked my thinking about, okay.
[Speaker 2] [1149.28s] What are you gonna do?
[Speaker 2] [1150.16s] What are you gonna do with that rest of that time?
[Speaker 2] [1151.60s] What does that mean?
[Speaker 2] [1152.55s] I didn't really start to write that or or seriously think about writing something about it till years later.
[Speaker 2] [1158.63s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1159.28s] But that was the thing that sort of made me start to process that the idea of aging and and what that really may means.
[Speaker 1] [1167.17s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [1167.65s] That that would be the thing.
[Speaker 1] [1169.09s] Right.
[Speaker 1] [1169.89s] So I know your your personal stories and your emotions are are are deeply woven into the book.
[Speaker 1] [1174.85s] Why did you feel why what what prompted you to share those those intimate parts of yourself?
[Speaker 2] [1183.90s] You know, I teach personal storytelling, and I teach memoir.
[Speaker 2] [1187.83s] And people always ask me, how can you be so open?
[Speaker 2] [1195.06s] I I don't know how it's just my nature, I guess.
[Speaker 2] [1198.50s] I I don't know how to be any other way.
[Speaker 2] [1201.86s] I've never been a close person.
[Speaker 2] [1203.46s] I'm I don't I wanna I don't wanna say I'm the kind of guy who walks up to strangers and start telling them my story.
[Speaker 2] [1208.59s] I'm not that guy.
[Speaker 2] [1210.11s] But, you know, I I we we again, a terrible cliche, but it's true.
[Speaker 2] [1216.59s] We have so much more in common than we don't, in the world, between each other.
[Speaker 2] [1222.74s] And sometimes when you explain to people that this is what you're going through or what you're thinking or what you've dealt with, they'll go, oh, yeah.
[Speaker 2] [1232.16s] Me too.
[Speaker 2] [1232.72s] Let me tell you my story.
[Speaker 2] [1234.56s] And and humans are storytellers.
[Speaker 2] [1236.24s] We've been doing this since caveman days.
[Speaker 2] [1238.00s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [1238.80s] So that's that's what I learned to be.
[Speaker 2] [1243.02s] Why didn't we learn it?
[Speaker 2] [1244.06s] I think it was innate for me, and I I don't know why that is.
[Speaker 2] [1247.10s] And my dad would told great jokes.
[Speaker 2] [1248.69s] My dad was a great jokes storyteller.
[Speaker 2] [1250.93s] So, he was really good at it.
[Speaker 2] [1254.81s] But, you know, sort of the old school jokes, you know, almost, you know, minor dad jokes, we wanna call them that.
[Speaker 1] [1260.81s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [1261.13s] He was good at it.
[Speaker 2] [1261.85s] He was really good at it.
[Speaker 2] [1263.29s] And my mother was a voracious reader, so I think maybe some of those things kinda came together in my genetics.
[Speaker 2] [1271.21s] I remember when I was a young man, 18, 19, I was in college, and I all I wanted to do was be on the radio and play, you know, Led Zeppelin all day long.
[Speaker 2] [1282.49s] I had hair at the time.
[Speaker 2] [1284.25s] I had long hair at
[Speaker 1] [1285.33s] the time.
[Speaker 2] [1285.61s] I was that guy.
[Speaker 2] [1286.41s] Right?
[Speaker 1] [1286.89s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [1287.13s] And I really wanted to do that's what I wanted to do with my life.
[Speaker 2] [1289.93s] I was that's you know, no one else in my in my of my forebearers had been to college before.
[Speaker 2] [1295.97s] I had a lot my family didn't even finish high school.
[Speaker 2] [1298.68s] So, you know, I I was the guy.
[Speaker 2] [1300.29s] I was the outlier, and I that's what I wanted to do.
[Speaker 2] [1303.57s] I didn't know any better.
[Speaker 2] [1304.77s] You know, I didn't know to be a lawyer or a doctor or any of that stuff that that wasn't in my world.
[Speaker 2] [1310.61s] You know, I came from a working class family, which I've learned to embrace, and I write about that in the book too.
[Speaker 2] [1316.85s] And I started thinking about how was I gonna do that, you know, and why do I wanna do that?
[Speaker 2] [1323.97s] And the very first job I got in radio was, at a at a country music station.
[Speaker 2] [1328.83s] At the time, country music was the urban cowboy days.
[Speaker 2] [1332.11s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [1332.35s] It was, like, huge.
[Speaker 2] [1335.07s] But I I wasn't it wasn't my thing.
[Speaker 2] [1337.46s] I learned to like some of it, and I've learned to like some of it now even though the commercialized country I don't really like.
[Speaker 2] [1343.70s] But the sort of alternative country I do.
[Speaker 2] [1345.86s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1346.02s] But I thought, okay.
[Speaker 2] [1346.98s] I'm gonna be on the radio, and I'm gonna play music, and that's my thing.
[Speaker 2] [1349.78s] And I played music, and I was a guitarist and a piano player, and I wasn't great, but I was good enough to play in a band, you know, in summers at bars and stuff.
[Speaker 2] [1358.51s] So I, you know, I had this thing about music, and the very first job I got out of college in radio was not music.
[Speaker 2] [1368.59s] It was news.
[Speaker 1] [1370.08s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1371.44s] And I learned through that process of those jobs that I it really wasn't about the music.
[Speaker 2] [1378.00s] It was about the stories.
[Speaker 2] [1380.56s] I was a storyteller.
[Speaker 2] [1382.82s] The news, the stories in music, you know, a store especially, like, you know, the stories that came out of people like Bob Dylan who were basic storytellers, those were magnificent to me.
[Speaker 2] [1394.97s] And I started to realize, well, that's what I am.
[Speaker 2] [1399.34s] I you know, and I became a reporter, and I told stories.
[Speaker 2] [1402.06s] In fact, when I was a news director for a long time, I used to tell my reporters, small group of guys and women, before we'd have our editorial meeting or after the editorial meeting, I would just say, go tell me good stories.
[Speaker 2] [1414.34s] Just because I thought that was the essence of it anyway.
[Speaker 2] [1417.77s] Just tell me a good story.
[Speaker 2] [1420.97s] And I learned it in time that that's what I that's what I was.
[Speaker 2] [1425.98s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1426.78s] And but it took me to my forties to really say, oh, well, maybe I should focus on some books.
[Speaker 2] [1432.94s] You know, maybe I maybe I got something that I could do.
[Speaker 2] [1435.98s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1436.73s] So to answer your question, you know, I I think I always was a sort of closeted storyteller that wanted to tell stories, and it was easy to tell stories about yourself because you already have that information.
[Speaker 2] [1447.54s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [1447.78s] You don't have to go research it, and you already got it.
[Speaker 2] [1450.49s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [1451.13s] So I started to do that.
[Speaker 2] [1453.83s] My very first book was a memoir.
[Speaker 2] [1455.27s] It was about the time that I spent teaching in a underprivileged school, and it was the book was called Accidental Lessons is called Accidental Lessons.
[Speaker 2] [1466.31s] And the reason it's called that is because the kids stopped me.
[Speaker 2] [1468.65s] I mean, they really did.
[Speaker 2] [1469.86s] I walked out of there going, holy Moses.
[Speaker 2] [1472.65s] He is troubled as some of these kids are and as difficult as some of their lives are.
[Speaker 2] [1476.97s] They're teaching me.
[Speaker 2] [1478.34s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1479.13s] And I that year was an awakening for me.
[Speaker 2] [1484.67s] And I started to realize too that if I tell that story, maybe other people will open up to the possibilities of listening to others about where they fit into their world and how they fit into the world like you do.
[Speaker 2] [1499.80s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [1500.20s] And it may be different than yours, but we do share a lot.
[Speaker 2] [1503.88s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1505.72s] So, you know, to answer your question, I think it came innately, but I didn't really it didn't crystallize to me.
[Speaker 2] [1513.17s] Like, oh, that's it until time passed.
[Speaker 1] [1516.05s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [1516.93s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [1517.73s] So, since the book's come out, have you gotten a lot of or have you gotten people going, well, me too?
[Speaker 1] [1522.69s] You know?
[Speaker 1] [1523.17s] Because
[Speaker 2] [1523.73s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [1524.37s] I I I have.
[Speaker 2] [1525.49s] I mean, I, I've noticed that in some reader reviews, and I've noticed that with a couple of emails that, you know, relate to that.
[Speaker 2] [1534.60s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [1534.91s] I I think it is a me too.
[Speaker 2] [1537.72s] And that's was my goal.
[Speaker 2] [1538.99s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [1539.23s] I didn't want it to be a a you know, as they say in my world, the naval gazer.
[Speaker 2] [1543.83s] I didn't want it to be like, oh, look at me over here.
[Speaker 2] [1546.47s] I'm looking at myself, and it's so cool, and I'm so cool.
[Speaker 2] [1549.35s] That that I didn't want it to be that.
[Speaker 2] [1551.11s] And, in fact, good memoir shouldn't be that.
[Speaker 2] [1554.64s] It should be be about the human condition, the shared human condition.
[Speaker 2] [1558.33s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1559.13s] And, you know, I always teach my classes when I say I'll say, when I say the word mother, all of you have some visceral reaction.
[Speaker 2] [1569.15s] Good, bad, ugly, funny, humorous, sad, whatever it is, you have some visceral reaction.
[Speaker 2] [1574.03s] The reason is because we all share it somehow.
[Speaker 2] [1577.23s] Even if we didn't even know our mother, we our biological mother, we have some visceral reaction to that word.
[Speaker 2] [1584.26s] That's the shared human condition.
[Speaker 2] [1586.41s] So when I write about personal stories my own, I try to be sure that I'm not, trying to get it into, you know, holding the mirror up to myself.
[Speaker 2] [1597.63s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1599.79s] Sometimes that's a tricky job, I'll have to be honest.
[Speaker 2] [1602.99s] But I do think that that's important Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [1606.59s] To do that because that's the way you connect with readers.
[Speaker 2] [1609.23s] That's the way you connect.
[Speaker 2] [1610.19s] I mean, that's how that's why memoir works is if you find that that that that ground in the in your stories that is similar, that is, alike that you share.
[Speaker 1] [1625.48s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [1625.72s] I I I completely agree.
[Speaker 1] [1627.32s] I found that, when you do when I read a memoir, when people read memoirs, we're not reading just about the person's experience that, that they had, but it's it's like, how does it relate to something that that I've had even though they're not exactly the same circumstance?
[Speaker 1] [1642.22s] We're looking for ourself and that and that other person.
[Speaker 2] [1645.82s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [1646.13s] I I think we when we write when memoir is done well, it casts a shadow, and that shadow kinda over comes over us, comes over the reader.
[Speaker 1] [1657.03s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1658.55s] And, you know, that that's where that's where the connection is made.
[Speaker 2] [1662.79s] That's one, you know, if you if if someone reads a memoir and doesn't know why it's doesn't, you know, clearly know in their heads why it's making a visceral reaction for them, well, the likelihood is that you're sharing some human condition experience.
[Speaker 1] [1677.05s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [1677.71s] You don't even realize sometimes that, like, you know, like, why did my heart flutter when he told me that story?
[Speaker 2] [1683.87s] Or, you know, well, that's because I had this happen, and it's kinda similar or it's, you know, it's it has the same sort of, you know, DNA in it somehow.
[Speaker 2] [1697.71s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [1698.11s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [1699.07s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [1699.87s] So we've already touched on Daylight Saving Time is not it's not a guide to aging.
[Speaker 1] [1704.03s] It's not a tip it's not a how to book.
[Speaker 1] [1706.18s] You know?
[Speaker 1] [1706.42s] It's really more, I guess, reflections.
[Speaker 1] [1708.82s] So what did you discover about joy, solace, and finding meaning in in later years of life?
[Speaker 2] [1716.34s] Well, well, that's a really good question.
[Speaker 2] [1721.15s] Well, joy is to me, joy is it's kind of a the kind of thing that can't be defined because it's different for everybody else.
[Speaker 2] [1735.11s] But, you know, I get joy out of just looking at my granddaughter, or I get joy out of taking a walk in the woods, or, you know, I get joy watching a good football game.
[Speaker 2] [1743.59s] I mean, you know, there's all kind of ways to to get joy, and that's a little maybe a little different, but somewhat overlapping to some of us or certain things that are all of us enjoy.
[Speaker 2] [1753.91s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [1755.76s] So the joy part, I think, is, what I what I learned from that is that it's it's out there every day.
[Speaker 1] [1762.69s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1763.09s] It's there every day.
[Speaker 2] [1765.33s] We just have to be, cognizant of it.
[Speaker 2] [1768.61s] Sort of I don't wanna say looking for it necessarily because I think that could be a problem, but be aware that it's there.
[Speaker 2] [1775.49s] And, you just have to sort of embrace it.
[Speaker 2] [1779.46s] You know, solace is is another thing for me.
[Speaker 2] [1782.66s] I, there's a difference between being alone and being lonely.
[Speaker 2] [1787.07s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [1788.30s] And, lonely is a lack of connection, a lack of meaning, and being alone is can be a great thing.
[Speaker 2] [1798.75s] It can you know, if you learn how to be alone well, you probably got a pretty healthy mind.
[Speaker 2] [1805.92s] And, you know, for me, solace is a wonderful thing.
[Speaker 2] [1809.13s] I I there are times I really like to be alone, and it's not about being lonely.
[Speaker 2] [1815.37s] It's not about being a recluse.
[Speaker 2] [1817.53s] It's about just taking stock of my own stuff, And, you know, I love that part, of it.
[Speaker 2] [1825.89s] And I do talk about that a lot in the book.
[Speaker 2] [1827.89s] I talk about how that is an important thing.
[Speaker 1] [1830.93s] But
[Speaker 2] [1831.09s] it's also I I I you know, of those things you talked about, there's also another thing that is sort of like that and there are sort of threads of this in the book.
[Speaker 2] [1841.18s] Is that understanding where we come from, you know, either, you know, family or, you know, the the the the places where where we grew up or we, you know, came of age.
[Speaker 2] [1857.29s] Those spaces and time all inform us, and they all shape us.
[Speaker 2] [1864.38s] We can't help it.
[Speaker 2] [1867.83s] Some of us kinda reject it.
[Speaker 2] [1870.23s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [1870.55s] Like, oh, I was born here, and I hate that town now, and I don't wanna have anything to do with it.
[Speaker 2] [1875.51s] Well, it's okay.
[Speaker 2] [1876.38s] I guess you can have that feeling.
[Speaker 2] [1878.69s] But somewhere along the line, that town or that thing or that neighborhood shaped you.
[Speaker 2] [1883.57s] And it it it it shaped you good, bad, or ugly, but it shaped you.
[Speaker 2] [1888.21s] And finding how that fits into who you are, I think, is really, really interesting.
[Speaker 2] [1895.72s] It took me a a long time.
[Speaker 2] [1897.39s] I never I grew up in Pittsburgh.
[Speaker 2] [1899.72s] I think I mentioned that.
[Speaker 2] [1900.84s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1901.63s] And when I was there in my, you know, sixties and early seventies into the mid eighties.
[Speaker 2] [1909.13s] You know, it was a transforming town.
[Speaker 2] [1911.29s] It was, you know, a steel workers, working class guy with a lunch bucket going to work 60 in the sixties.
[Speaker 2] [1917.77s] Seventies, the steel mill started to close.
[Speaker 2] [1920.25s] It became a completely different town.
[Speaker 2] [1923.13s] We had 20% unemployment.
[Speaker 2] [1925.13s] It was bad.
[Speaker 2] [1926.73s] And then in the eighties, it started to transform itself.
[Speaker 2] [1929.21s] It became a medical hub.
[Speaker 2] [1930.41s] It became a a later on, it became a technical hub.
[Speaker 2] [1934.34s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1934.89s] Google tested its first, you know, autonomous car in Pittsburgh.
[Speaker 2] [1942.39s] So it became something different.
[Speaker 2] [1944.87s] It still hangs on to that legacy, but what Pittsburgh has done really well, the legacy of the steel mills, is it has embraced the legacy.
[Speaker 2] [1955.17s] It's what we were back in the day that made us who we are today, and I think that's true for all of us.
[Speaker 1] [1961.26s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [1961.74s] It's, you know, everywhere we've been, everything we've experienced, every town we've lived in, every apartment we rented, somehow that's informed us.
[Speaker 2] [1971.18s] And you may not have liked it all, but to understand that that is part of you and to see how it fits into what you are, I think helps inform how you move forward.
[Speaker 1] [1984.22s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [1984.87s] And, I think that you know, I talk a lot about that in the book, about family history and where my, you know, family came from and and and where I, how I started to realize that that was a good thing to be.
[Speaker 2] [1999.83s] You know, there was a time when I was shunning the working class world.
[Speaker 2] [2002.97s] I was able to know I wanna be I am Kent.
[Speaker 2] [2005.37s] I know.
[Speaker 2] [2006.41s] But I look back at now.
[Speaker 2] [2008.33s] I'm like, man, that was that was pretty damn cool.
[Speaker 2] [2011.53s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2011.77s] I'm glad I had that experience.
[Speaker 1] [2014.14s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2014.30s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [2014.63s] I feel very, very, very happy about that.
[Speaker 2] [2016.94s] I I embrace that now.
[Speaker 2] [2018.70s] I I love it.
[Speaker 2] [2021.66s] So maybe with that age too comes a little wisdom.
[Speaker 2] [2024.54s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [2024.94s] So Right.
[Speaker 2] [2026.07s] It's just a thing.
[Speaker 2] [2027.28s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2027.68s] So so speaking of that, so have you found, it easier to to find joy and solace and meaning and all those things as you get older?
[Speaker 2] [2039.52s] Easier is a good word, a good interesting word because I know I don't know if it's necessarily easier, but I think I'm quicker to, to recognize it.
[Speaker 2] [2049.34s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [2049.66s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [2049.97s] I'm and I'm quicker to embrace it.
[Speaker 2] [2051.66s] I'm quicker than to say, oh, man.
[Speaker 2] [2053.09s] Take this moment and take this in.
[Speaker 2] [2056.71s] I'm quicker to do that than I used to be.
[Speaker 2] [2061.35s] You know, when you're young, you always wanna okay.
[Speaker 2] [2063.35s] What's the next thing?
[Speaker 2] [2063.99s] What's the most what's the next exciting thing?
[Speaker 2] [2065.75s] What's the next experience I wanna have?
[Speaker 2] [2067.27s] What's the next thing?
[Speaker 2] [2069.51s] I think when you start to get older, you start to say, you know what?
[Speaker 2] [2073.11s] Let's take this in a minute.
[Speaker 2] [2075.11s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [2075.68s] Let let's, in a way, you know, physically slow down, but also sort of mentally slow down a little bit and let it seep in.
[Speaker 2] [2083.84s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [2084.45s] You know, I I can I can make the connection to my son's sauce?
[Speaker 2] [2087.17s] You know, the sauce is gonna be good because it sat on the stove for a day and a half, you know, in a slow, slow burn.
[Speaker 2] [2093.33s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [2095.17s] I I think that's okay for us too.
[Speaker 2] [2098.03s] As we get older, we start to slow down.
[Speaker 2] [2100.36s] You're like, you know what?
[Speaker 2] [2101.07s] It's gonna be better if I just take my time here and take it in and accept it and realize it.
[Speaker 2] [2106.76s] And I think we also understand ourselves better when we do that.
[Speaker 2] [2109.88s] You know, even if we mess up, and we do something wrong or do something we didn't like or handle the particular moment not very well.
[Speaker 2] [2120.65s] If you if you step back, really feel what that felt like for whatever you did.
[Speaker 2] [2128.40s] Really I mean, really let it feel.
[Speaker 2] [2130.09s] Don't fight it.
[Speaker 2] [2131.92s] Sometimes that's really painful.
[Speaker 2] [2133.76s] But if you do that, I I think you can be better the next time.
[Speaker 2] [2139.05s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [2139.53s] But if you brush it off and move on and say, well, that was just a thing.
[Speaker 2] [2143.07s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [2143.15s] I didn't really mean that.
[Speaker 2] [2143.95s] I'm moving on.
[Speaker 2] [2145.07s] I don't think you allow your time allow the time to understand it.
[Speaker 2] [2152.35s] Sometimes that's really hard, but, you know, I I think that that's an important process in aging.
[Speaker 2] [2159.97s] And I think it kinda comes naturally to all of us.
[Speaker 2] [2162.61s] I think if you ask anybody who's, you know, your your age or my age, then they would say, yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2168.13s] I I slow down and and and take it in a little more.
[Speaker 1] [2171.86s] I think it Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2172.42s] You do.
[Speaker 1] [2173.01s] I think it can.
[Speaker 1] [2175.06s] Well, for me, I I would say, yeah, I do find it easier to to find all those things we talked about, joy and peace and meaning the older I get because of the the wisdom as you mentioned and the perspective that we get with age.
[Speaker 1] [2188.98s] When I was young and something happened that set me back, I thought it was the end of the world.
[Speaker 1] [2193.07s] You know?
[Speaker 1] [2193.46s] It's like and you don't you don't see you don't get to see the long arc.
[Speaker 1] [2197.07s] You don't get to see how how things play out.
[Speaker 1] [2199.55s] And once you've seen several things play out that you thought were terrible and you realize they turned out okay or not only that, they were actually beneficial, just for myself, I find it that's a that's a perspective that I really enjoy about about being older.
[Speaker 2] [2215.64s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2215.72s] That's a really good point.
[Speaker 2] [2216.85s] I do think, you know, you don't see the long arc.
[Speaker 2] [2219.81s] And, also, when you're younger, whatever that means, whatever age that means, we all think we're immortal too.
[Speaker 2] [2227.41s] You know?
[Speaker 1] [2227.81s] We all
[Speaker 2] [2228.13s] go, well, I didn't I didn't get it right this time.
[Speaker 2] [2230.05s] I'll get it right tomorrow.
[Speaker 2] [2231.46s] But when you start to get older, you're like, well, you know, I may not have tomorrow.
[Speaker 1] [2236.58s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2236.98s] And I
[Speaker 2] [2237.22s] don't mean that in a sort of dark way.
[Speaker 2] [2239.38s] I it's just reality.
[Speaker 1] [2240.90s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2241.38s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2241.78s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2242.50s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2242.58s] Well, you know tomorrow to fix this or to make this right or to do it better.
[Speaker 2] [2247.68s] So, I'm gonna take it in.
[Speaker 2] [2249.76s] I'm gonna think about it.
[Speaker 2] [2250.72s] I'm gonna accept how I feel, and I'm gonna go to the next thing.
[Speaker 1] [2254.64s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2255.36s] Well, I I know I I love the Olympics.
[Speaker 1] [2257.52s] I mean and I've been watching the books since I was I remember the first one I remember was in 1972, so over 50 years at this point.
[Speaker 1] [2265.11s] But when the Olympics were over this summer, I'm like, wow.
[Speaker 1] [2267.83s] The next one, if I'm here, I'll be 67.
[Speaker 1] [2270.55s] You know?
[Speaker 1] [2270.71s] I don't I don't have an infinite number of those in front of me anymore.
[Speaker 1] [2274.15s] So I'm looking at it now, like, you know, enjoy it.
[Speaker 1] [2277.74s] Enjoy this one because I don't take for granted that, you know, 4 years or 8 years are gonna be be around for the next ones.
[Speaker 2] [2283.82s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2284.07s] It's one of the reasons I took a trip to, to Ireland and England and Wales with my wife and kind of I don't wanna say talk her into it, but it definitely was my sort of, like, thing.
[Speaker 1] [2295.43s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [2295.83s] She's a lot less interested in sort of lineage than I am.
[Speaker 1] [2300.55s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [2300.87s] I have became more interested when I got older, but I was always you know, I remember being in my thirties and my mother talking about certain things in it.
[Speaker 2] [2307.32s] I I had an interest.
[Speaker 2] [2308.28s] I just didn't delve into it.
[Speaker 2] [2309.97s] So we took that trip, and it was really it was like you say, it was the thing.
[Speaker 2] [2314.45s] Well, if I'm gonna do this, let's let's go do it now.
[Speaker 2] [2318.07s] Right.
[Speaker 1] [2318.31s] Because I
[Speaker 2] [2318.55s] don't know if I'm gonna be around or I'm gonna be, you know, physically or mentally well enough
[Speaker 1] [2325.67s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [2326.07s] 10 years from now to take on this journey.
[Speaker 2] [2329.51s] So I'm really glad I did
[Speaker 1] [2330.71s] it.
[Speaker 1] [2331.43s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2332.88s] Now I know, you you said the book is not just for people that are going through the aging process.
[Speaker 1] [2337.91s] So what can people who are not going through the aging process?
[Speaker 1] [2341.03s] Why would why would they wanna read it?
[Speaker 2] [2343.20s] Well, first of all, I think everybody's going through the aging process.
[Speaker 1] [2346.44s] That's absolutely true.
[Speaker 2] [2347.64s] Are gonna be 15 someday.
[Speaker 2] [2349.00s] Right?
[Speaker 1] [2349.56s] It's absolutely true.
[Speaker 2] [2351.32s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2351.64s] So I not that to say that this book is for 12 year olds.
[Speaker 2] [2354.84s] I don't know if it would be an interesting enough read for a 12 or 15 year old, but I think you're 25.
[Speaker 2] [2362.09s] I don't I don't see anything there that doesn't say something about, you know, moving through your twenties and going into your thirties.
[Speaker 2] [2370.83s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [2371.47s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2371.71s] I talk about different things and different eras, but I I I think those, you know, don't think it's a necessary lesson, but I think those, those observations are true for anybody.
[Speaker 2] [2384.34s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [2385.30s] About moving through the process.
[Speaker 2] [2388.26s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2388.49s] I think it rings truer for people who are 50 and older because, you know, you're it's almost like, you know, when you and I of our age mentioned a television show, we all connected that television show that was back in the seventies.
[Speaker 2] [2405.25s] And somebody who's 35 goes, I don't even know what seventies are.
[Speaker 2] [2410.93s] You know, there's a there's a there's this connection that we all have.
[Speaker 2] [2416.38s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [2416.78s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [2417.01s] So I think if somebody, who who there might be some things in the book that someone might go, oh, what is he what's what's he talking about?
[Speaker 2] [2425.18s] You know, there might be a few things in there, but I do still think they can get they can see the process.
[Speaker 2] [2431.58s] And maybe maybe in a weird sort of way, the book, opens the mind up a little bit for that 30 year old to go, oh, jeez.
[Speaker 2] [2441.18s] Well, I'm 50.
[Speaker 2] [2441.97s] Maybe I ought to think about this kind of stuff.
[Speaker 2] [2444.38s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2445.34s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2445.58s] So I I I think there's some you know, I'm not trying to get the make great marketing plan here that the book's for everybody.
[Speaker 2] [2451.26s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [2451.58s] It's not necessarily what I'm saying.
[Speaker 2] [2453.26s] But, but I because, you know, I you know, some people may not be interested, but but I do think that there's there's there are threads in there that no matter your age, I think you can get something from it.
[Speaker 1] [2466.18s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2466.42s] You can
[Speaker 2] [2466.90s] see your life in it.
[Speaker 2] [2468.26s] I I think so.
[Speaker 1] [2469.49s] Well, you know, it's funny.
[Speaker 1] [2470.36s] Let's talk about the aging process.
[Speaker 1] [2471.64s] I have a daughter who's, 27.
[Speaker 1] [2474.13s] She'll be 28, you know, very soon.
[Speaker 1] [2476.61s] And when she was younger, she would talk about old people.
[Speaker 1] [2479.72s] Old people this, old people that, you know, she didn't like being around.
[Speaker 1] [2482.53s] And I I said, you know, you're gonna be there one day too.
[Speaker 1] [2486.67s] And when she was, you know, a teenager, 12, 13, 14, she just couldn't even see it.
[Speaker 1] [2491.87s] But now that she's 27, I hear her saying things like, oh, yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2495.15s] We went to the bar, and there were so many kids there.
[Speaker 1] [2498.36s] They all look so young.
[Speaker 1] [2500.20s] And, you know, she's she's very, very thin, and she's like, you know, I'm concerned about putting on weight.
[Speaker 1] [2506.20s] And I just kinda I just sit back and grin, because, again, she's going through that aging process in their little mini way.
[Speaker 1] [2513.89s] Right?
[Speaker 1] [2514.13s] She's 28.
[Speaker 2] [2514.85s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2515.41s] That's
[Speaker 1] [2515.57s] right.
[Speaker 1] [2515.81s] Starting to understand that I'm not always gonna be the the age I am now.
[Speaker 1] [2520.21s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2521.17s] So I think that's that's really cool, and and she's she's very mature, and she's, you know, maturing very quickly.
[Speaker 1] [2526.72s] But as you were talking about that, and we talked earlier about the wisdom of of people who are older, my grandmother lived with us for, about 13 years from the time I was 8 until she passed, and I was in my early twenties.
[Speaker 1] [2540.10s] And I remember even to this day, even though this was over 50 years ago, sitting at the kitchen table with her and some of the wisdom that that she gave me, which I didn't appreciate at the time, but I still quote her today because, it was just it was brilliant.
[Speaker 1] [2555.77s] So Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2556.32s] I think a book like this for people that can grasp it at their early age can give them a big leg up.
[Speaker 2] [2562.89s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2563.13s] And I think you have to be willing to grasp it too.
[Speaker 2] [2565.68s] You know, my my I have 2 sons.
[Speaker 2] [2569.03s] My, my younger son is the one who lives in the area.
[Speaker 2] [2574.07s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [2574.47s] And, you know, he's 31, and he'll say things every once in a while like, well, that's what you said.
[Speaker 2] [2581.67s] You said that.
[Speaker 2] [2582.23s] And I'm like, I did?
[Speaker 2] [2583.97s] Like, yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2584.68s] So it's amazing how much impression you placed on people.
[Speaker 2] [2589.89s] You know, you're you're the people that you've been around with a long time.
[Speaker 1] [2593.01s] Sure.
[Speaker 1] [2593.32s] You
[Speaker 2] [2593.49s] don't realize that.
[Speaker 2] [2594.45s] You know, you don't you think you are.
[Speaker 2] [2596.36s] You hope you are maybe.
[Speaker 2] [2597.97s] And Oh, the good things, not the bad things.
[Speaker 2] [2600.20s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [2600.68s] But, but, you know, he'll say he'll even say things like, you know what?
[Speaker 2] [2607.56s] I like Creedence Clearout of Revival, don't you?
[Speaker 1] [2610.28s] Because of you.
[Speaker 1] [2611.26s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2611.57s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [2611.89s] And I'm like, because you would have never known anything about that band if it wasn't for me.
[Speaker 2] [2616.61s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [2617.41s] So, and so he said that this made an influence on me about what I like, you know, what what kind of music I process.
[Speaker 2] [2627.68s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [2628.08s] And that's a, you know, kind of a an odd way to to connect with that.
[Speaker 2] [2631.92s] But I think that's true that but but people don't begin to see that until they start to get older.
[Speaker 2] [2639.88s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [2640.11s] And they something comes back to them that they experienced from some elder somewhere.
[Speaker 2] [2646.68s] Right.
[Speaker 1] [2646.91s] And they're
[Speaker 2] [2647.16s] like, wow.
[Speaker 2] [2648.59s] Wait a minute.
[Speaker 2] [2649.32s] Didn't grandpa do that?
[Speaker 2] [2650.52s] You know, or whatever.
[Speaker 2] [2652.11s] But you don't think about that when you're 20.
[Speaker 2] [2654.28s] You know, I I just you're so self involved when you're 20.
[Speaker 2] [2657.85s] There's no way you're thinking about that.
[Speaker 2] [2659.93s] Only the very, very aware person is gonna pick up on stuff like that when they're 20.
[Speaker 1] [2665.93s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2666.25s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2666.49s] Well, I again, I think the book is for those people that, you know and and it it depends on what age you get.
[Speaker 1] [2671.66s] I think that's that's what it kinda comes down to.
[Speaker 1] [2673.43s] Right?
[Speaker 1] [2673.66s] It could come earlier, but for some people, it doesn't come till they're later.
[Speaker 1] [2677.43s] And some people, it never comes at all.
[Speaker 1] [2679.82s] So we're we're all different in terms of of of our awareness.
[Speaker 1] [2683.59s] I wanna ask you about the the subtitle of your book, which I think is really interesting.
[Speaker 1] [2687.36s] Essays on Literature, Art, and the Power of Growing Older.
[Speaker 1] [2690.56s] So how did you choose choose the subtitle, and how does that reflect it in the book?
[Speaker 2] [2694.40s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2694.64s] Well, I I wrestled with the word power a lot.
[Speaker 2] [2698.80s] Because, and I'll tell you why.
[Speaker 2] [2700.80s] Because it started to feel like, okay.
[Speaker 2] [2702.95s] That could be very self help y.
[Speaker 2] [2705.91s] And, and I played around with some other words, but I think what it came down to for me, the power of growing older is that there is power in growing older if you accept it as power.
[Speaker 2] [2719.23s] If you say, I can use this.
[Speaker 2] [2721.95s] This is fuel.
[Speaker 2] [2723.87s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [2726.21s] I'm more wise.
[Speaker 2] [2727.26s] I'm more worldly.
[Speaker 2] [2728.38s] I'm more aware.
[Speaker 2] [2729.26s] I'm I've I've gone I've had the ups and downs.
[Speaker 2] [2731.66s] I've had the things that I've screwed up and the things that I've done well.
[Speaker 2] [2734.78s] I've got some I got some toolboxes here now, and that's power.
[Speaker 2] [2741.72s] So, you know, my my my publisher even said, no.
[Speaker 2] [2746.12s] I have they have no that's what we're gonna use at.
[Speaker 2] [2748.92s] I don't want you to change it.
[Speaker 2] [2750.84s] So, yeah, there's a lot in the book about about that toolbox.
[Speaker 2] [2756.26s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [2756.57s] There's a lot in that book about how music and art and literature shape us even if it's subtle.
[Speaker 2] [2764.09s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [2765.61s] And, you know, for me, it was more of the subtle.
[Speaker 2] [2771.80s] But, you know, we we have the human condition allows us to enjoy art and process art, whatever form it might be, and that is uniquely human.
[Speaker 2] [2787.18s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [2787.59s] I mean, dogs aren't going around looking at Picassos.
[Speaker 2] [2790.70s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [2791.99s] Not the same way we are.
[Speaker 1] [2793.35s] Right.
[Speaker 1] [2793.66s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [2795.51s] So, funny, though, dogs do react to music.
[Speaker 2] [2800.38s] I say also it that's interesting.
[Speaker 2] [2803.34s] But that's where the title came from.
[Speaker 2] [2807.42s] That's why the the power of growing old was the thing that I wrestled with.
[Speaker 2] [2812.55s] But I do think that that's, that makes a lot more sense now to me.
[Speaker 2] [2817.74s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 1] [2818.30s] I
[Speaker 2] [2818.46s] really wasn't sure about it at the beginning.
[Speaker 2] [2821.98s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [2824.19s] I was I just didn't want it to sound like a self help book because I didn't wanna imply that it was, and I have people read it and go, oh, well, this isn't what I thought it was.
[Speaker 2] [2832.35s] Actually, I did have one reader review somewhere in the on the online, you know, platforms.
[Speaker 2] [2838.28s] Someone said, well, this book is not what I thought it was gonna be, but it was I still liked it.
[Speaker 1] [2842.84s] Okay.
[Speaker 2] [2843.39s] I thought to myself, well, that's probably what she thought.
[Speaker 2] [2846.03s] She probably thought this was gonna be, you know, the step by step process of how you make aging a better experience.
[Speaker 1] [2852.94s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [2854.22s] And I'm sure those there's some things in there you can use, but that's not what it was meant to be.
[Speaker 1] [2859.42s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2860.14s] Well, it's interesting.
[Speaker 1] [2861.10s] As as you talked about the word power, I thought, okay.
[Speaker 1] [2863.98s] Well, there's advantage advantages and disadvantages to every phase of life.
[Speaker 1] [2871.05s] When we're we're younger, we talked about this.
[Speaker 1] [2873.05s] Physically, we can do things that we can't do anymore.
[Speaker 1] [2875.38s] I I never liked running anyway, but now I can't run.
[Speaker 1] [2879.00s] So, you know, it's that's something I can do anymore.
[Speaker 1] [2881.40s] I used to love to play volleyball.
[Speaker 1] [2882.84s] I don't play volleyball anymore, but I'm a pretty good pickleball player.
[Speaker 1] [2887.32s] So, you know, there and I and, again, I have this perspective on life, and I I watch, you know, younger people going through things.
[Speaker 1] [2894.88s] And I I sit back and I kinda smile because I know the thing that's, like, a really, really big deal for them right now.
[Speaker 1] [2901.03s] You know?
[Speaker 1] [2901.91s] I I didn't get this promotion, or it's gonna be it's gonna be delayed now for, like, a whole month.
[Speaker 1] [2907.97s] You know?
[Speaker 1] [2908.29s] It's like my my boss screwed this up, and it's gonna be a month.
[Speaker 1] [2911.97s] It's gonna be a month before I get my promotion, and I'm like, okay.
[Speaker 1] [2917.41s] Okay.
[Speaker 1] [2917.89s] That that that perception of a month changes when you're 63 as opposed to when you're 30.
[Speaker 2] [2922.76s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2922.91s] That's absolutely true.
[Speaker 2] [2924.28s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2924.76s] So there there is there is power in it.
[Speaker 1] [2926.91s] I know I wouldn't shy away from saying that.
[Speaker 1] [2928.64s] It doesn't mean it's it's better or it's worse.
[Speaker 1] [2932.04s] We and the but the the one thing that's better is I think we have that perspective to choose, like, okay.
[Speaker 1] [2936.99s] I understand that I do have an advantage here with that, I wouldn't have understood when I was younger.
[Speaker 2] [2943.20s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [2943.68s] Right.
[Speaker 1] [2944.16s] So we we talked about our oh, go ahead.
[Speaker 2] [2946.64s] No.
[Speaker 2] [2946.72s] I was gonna say that only comes with aging.
[Speaker 2] [2948.32s] I know it sounds like, but you only get that when you start to get older.
[Speaker 2] [2952.08s] I mean, I just don't there are very few people who are younger who are that that wise about that.
[Speaker 1] [2957.34s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2957.82s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2958.14s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2958.39s] It it it well, I know for me, you know, for me, it it definitely came with the ages, and I'm still I'm still learning and and learning how to be gratitude.
[Speaker 1] [2966.32s] You know?
[Speaker 1] [2966.64s] Gratitude is something when I was in my twenties thirties.
[Speaker 1] [2970.08s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [2970.32s] Don't even talk to me about that.
[Speaker 2] [2972.00s] No.
[Speaker 2] [2972.32s] Exactly.
[Speaker 1] [2973.12s] But, you know, now it's like, oh, okay.
[Speaker 1] [2974.96s] And I can get out of bed.
[Speaker 1] [2976.48s] Right?
[Speaker 1] [2976.80s] My my knees are okay.
[Speaker 1] [2978.00s] I can still walk 6 miles a day.
[Speaker 1] [2979.68s] That's I'm grateful for that.
[Speaker 1] [2981.41s] Whereas I would have taken that for granted when I was in my my twenties.
[Speaker 2] [2985.01s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [2985.80s] Yep.
[Speaker 2] [2986.68s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [2987.01s] So true.
[Speaker 1] [2987.89s] We talked about art and literature and stuff.
[Speaker 1] [2989.72s] How does spirituality play into this, if at all?
[Speaker 2] [2993.30s] It does.
[Speaker 2] [2994.34s] There's a thread of spirituality through the book, and, you know, that may you know, some people may go, oh, really?
[Speaker 2] [3001.94s] Spirituality again?
[Speaker 2] [3002.98s] Great.
[Speaker 2] [3003.46s] And other people might say it may embrace it.
[Speaker 2] [3005.62s] But, the way I approach it is that I have always been a searcher.
[Speaker 2] [3012.76s] That's why I like to describe myself.
[Speaker 2] [3014.44s] I I don't know what's out there.
[Speaker 2] [3016.20s] I just know that there's something.
[Speaker 2] [3018.83s] I don't know what that is.
[Speaker 2] [3020.03s] I just know that there's something bigger than me.
[Speaker 2] [3023.15s] I don't know what that means.
[Speaker 2] [3024.67s] I don't claim to know what it means.
[Speaker 2] [3026.59s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 1] [3026.91s] You know,
[Speaker 2] [3027.15s] I grew up a a Catholic.
[Speaker 2] [3029.47s] You know, did the whole, you know, catechism classes, all the good stuff that you do.
[Speaker 2] [3038.83s] But I rejected it when I got into college.
[Speaker 2] [3040.99s] You know, it was the early seventies, and if you were 18, you were rejecting a lot.
[Speaker 2] [3047.55s] And, you know, it didn't fit well into my world, and it still didn't.
[Speaker 2] [3051.47s] I I tried to go back to more organized religion, later in my life.
[Speaker 2] [3056.11s] It never sometimes it felt right, sometimes it didn't.
[Speaker 2] [3059.39s] Then I started to think about, you know, Buddhist philosophies.
[Speaker 2] [3064.56s] I start thinking about, you know, Native American philosophy, and all of that informs me somehow.
[Speaker 2] [3073.52s] But I have determined that at this point, I am nothing more than a searcher.
[Speaker 2] [3079.48s] That's all I do.
[Speaker 2] [3080.52s] I don't have an answer.
[Speaker 2] [3081.72s] I don't have an idea.
[Speaker 2] [3082.84s] I don't have a dogma.
[Speaker 2] [3084.28s] I don't have a core belief that guides me, but I do think that there are pieces of things out there.
[Speaker 2] [3094.88s] And many it's funny, though.
[Speaker 2] [3096.15s] Many of the spiritual beliefs and religious beliefs have a lot of overlap that we tend to forget.
[Speaker 2] [3103.03s] We tend to think of them as being siloed, and they're really not.
[Speaker 2] [3106.64s] There's a lot of this.
[Speaker 2] [3108.56s] And, and if we can find that little bit of overlap and go, oh, okay.
[Speaker 2] [3113.04s] That everybody thinks that.
[Speaker 2] [3114.32s] Like, you know, do unto others as you would, you know, have them known to you.
[Speaker 2] [3118.08s] I mean, that's true in every religion out there
[Speaker 1] [3121.69s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [3122.09s] In some phase.
[Speaker 2] [3123.78s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [3124.09s] So, you know, I think that there's a there's a there's a a thread that I sort of ride.
[Speaker 2] [3133.38s] But in the book, I I I kind of, you know, delve into that a little bit about what that means and what it means to just believe in something bigger than you.
[Speaker 2] [3146.46s] You know, it's hard not to especially when you're younger.
[Speaker 2] [3150.91s] It's hard not to think of yourself as a senator of the universe.
[Speaker 2] [3154.59s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [3155.80s] And the reality is you are far from that.
[Speaker 2] [3159.98s] It doesn't mean your life doesn't matter.
[Speaker 2] [3161.74s] It doesn't mean your life can't influence or or make good or whatever, but you are not the center of the universe.
[Speaker 2] [3170.22s] And, I think when you start to know that and realize that, the the spiritual part of your life becomes a little more easy to understand.
[Speaker 2] [3184.63s] And if you're not so hardwired or in the cement about a particular dogma, I think you also can be more accepting to other people's beliefs.
[Speaker 2] [3195.55s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [3196.51s] You know, if you're hardwired and you're figuring the cement on something, and we see this, you know, right, then I mean, that's what wars are about for most part.
[Speaker 2] [3206.06s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [3207.82s] That if you can stop doing that and believe that everybody is on their own journey and that everybody is in some aspect a seeker, and a searcher, I think we'd all be better off.
[Speaker 2] [3223.30s] Not easy to do.
[Speaker 1] [3225.14s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [3225.46s] You
[Speaker 2] [3225.62s] know?
[Speaker 2] [3225.86s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3226.34s] Not easy to do.
[Speaker 1] [3227.54s] Well, you you know, it's it's interesting because, and I know the book is not prescriptive.
[Speaker 1] [3232.41s] Not telling people how to do things.
[Speaker 1] [3233.93s] So I I know you're you're very, very clear about about that.
[Speaker 1] [3237.53s] But I was curious about curious about your own experience.
[Speaker 1] [3241.21s] With my experience, you know, I I deal a lot with with death.
[Speaker 1] [3246.11s] I deal with people who have you know, I work with people who have lost people.
[Speaker 1] [3249.71s] I'm very much into spirituality and afterlife and all that stuff.
[Speaker 1] [3253.87s] That is one of the things that brings me the greatest piece as I'm as as we age.
[Speaker 1] [3258.01s] And this is, I think, one of the reasons why we don't revere aging in our society is because we're scared that we're going to die.
[Speaker 1] [3265.53s] And the older that we get, the more likely that is to happen.
[Speaker 1] [3269.68s] So I think that's I think it's one of the reasons why we have all the issues we have with age and why we wanna hide old people away and not look at them because it's like, you know, you're you're headed to where I don't wanna go.
[Speaker 2] [3280.48s] It's a reminder.
[Speaker 2] [3281.68s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [3282.91s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3283.14s] That's a really good point.
[Speaker 2] [3284.51s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3284.74s] And if you do believe in something after life and a lot of people don't even think of it as something after life.
[Speaker 2] [3290.03s] They just think it's a continuum of somehow.
[Speaker 2] [3292.03s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [3292.34s] It's a continuum.
[Speaker 2] [3294.03s] It's just in a different form.
[Speaker 2] [3295.55s] And that might be true, but but but there's also a part of me that's like, nah.
[Speaker 2] [3301.05s] When we die, we're dust.
[Speaker 2] [3302.33s] We go to the earth.
[Speaker 2] [3303.13s] That's it.
[Speaker 2] [3303.53s] It's over.
[Speaker 2] [3304.09s] Done.
[Speaker 2] [3304.65s] You know, there's a part of me that believes that too.
[Speaker 2] [3306.49s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [3307.61s] I waver.
[Speaker 2] [3308.33s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [3309.21s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [3309.93s] I waver all the time.
[Speaker 2] [3312.72s] Don't think that makes me any better or different or, you know, worse or anything else than anybody else.
[Speaker 2] [3318.80s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [3319.20s] I just tend to think that I guess my core belief is we don't really know.
[Speaker 2] [3324.49s] We don't have a clue.
[Speaker 2] [3326.41s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [3326.80s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [3327.78s] I I remember my mother saying to my grandmother, my you know, like like your life, my grandmother lived with us for a while when I was younger.
[Speaker 2] [3335.54s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [3336.26s] And I remember my mother saying to and that doesn't happen much anymore, by the way.
[Speaker 2] [3340.34s] And I think that's also an interesting thing about aging.
[Speaker 2] [3343.03s] You know, back in the forties fifties, that was a normal thing.
[Speaker 1] [3345.99s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [3346.55s] Your your grandparents lived with you for a while.
[Speaker 2] [3349.74s] But I I, I remember my mother saying my grandmother saying to my mother, if there is an afterlife, I'll let you know.
[Speaker 2] [3360.76s] Okay?
[Speaker 2] [3362.60s] And the interesting part of that is and I don't remember if I wrote this in Daylight Saving Time or another book, frankly.
[Speaker 2] [3368.68s] But there was this very strange incident that happened.
[Speaker 2] [3374.61s] When my grandmother died, she died upstairs in the bedroom, and my mother didn't know she had passed.
[Speaker 2] [3379.82s] She passed during the night.
[Speaker 2] [3381.10s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [3382.26s] And a couple of days after the funeral, the neighbor next door now this is someone who's not even connected to our family.
[Speaker 2] [3388.58s] And it was a kind of a neighbor that, you know, you'd say hi to, but you you weren't really friendly with.
[Speaker 2] [3394.11s] The neighbor said, hey.
[Speaker 2] [3394.99s] I'm sorry about your mother, and, you know, I waited a while, but I wanted to tell you something.
[Speaker 2] [3399.80s] She's, yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3400.76s] Sure.
[Speaker 2] [3401.16s] She said, you know, I was at my kitchen sink on Sunday morning early, and I was doing dishes.
[Speaker 2] [3407.88s] And from my kitchen sink, I could see out the back window.
[Speaker 2] [3411.72s] And she's, I saw your mother walking through the backyards.
[Speaker 2] [3417.16s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [3417.96s] And I said, she hasn't been well, and she's old.
[Speaker 2] [3420.52s] What is she doing back there?
[Speaker 2] [3423.13s] And she watched her, and then she kinda, like, disappeared into the, you know, the kind of a wooded area we lived in.
[Speaker 2] [3430.80s] And she didn't think anything of it.
[Speaker 2] [3432.41s] An hour later, the ambulance shows up at the house.
[Speaker 2] [3437.53s] Wow.
[Speaker 2] [3438.09s] Warner's office showed up at the house.
[Speaker 2] [3441.21s] And she said, I didn't wanna tell you until some time had passed, but she said, I just thought that was really odd.
[Speaker 2] [3447.61s] And she's, did your mother take a walk that morning?
[Speaker 2] [3451.09s] And my mother said, my mother was never out of bed.
[Speaker 1] [3455.41s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [3455.73s] And she said, are you sure that was you thought that was my mother?
[Speaker 2] [3458.61s] I said, I know what your mother looks like.
[Speaker 2] [3461.09s] That was her.
[Speaker 1] [3462.22s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [3463.16s] So my mother started thinking, well, that was the sign then.
[Speaker 1] [3466.68s] Right?
[Speaker 1] [3467.72s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3467.96s] That was the sign.
[Speaker 2] [3469.00s] Signs that thumbs up.
[Speaker 2] [3471.08s] Maybe it's true.
[Speaker 1] [3472.28s] Well, I I can't a great story.
[Speaker 1] [3474.28s] I I gotta tell you.
[Speaker 1] [3475.32s] I I got goosebumps as you were saying that.
[Speaker 1] [3478.68s] You know, and it's really interesting because in the world I live in, I wouldn't even question that.
[Speaker 1] [3483.61s] You know?
[Speaker 1] [3484.01s] And I think it's really interesting how it goes back to our like, giving people permission to tell stories because, you know, why did you hold that back from you from your mother even further while that you did?
[Speaker 1] [3495.61s] Well, because I don't wanna be seen as weird, or I don't wanna be seen as, you know, woo woo, as as we call it in the world that that that I'm in.
[Speaker 1] [3505.38s] You know, that's those things, they definitely happen.
[Speaker 1] [3508.74s] I I I totally believe what she said, and that's not I'm not gonna say it's not a rare occurrence.
[Speaker 1] [3515.45s] It's rare, but it's definitely not unheard of.
[Speaker 1] [3518.75s] And so that's I'm I'm glad you told me.
[Speaker 1] [3520.91s] That was a really interest really interesting thing.
[Speaker 2] [3523.15s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3523.47s] Really, you know, whether she was really saw that or just delusional or was thinking about it or maybe it was somebody else that she thought it was my grandmother.
[Speaker 2] [3534.09s] You know, there's all kind of ways that you can rationalize it.
[Speaker 2] [3536.49s] Right?
[Speaker 1] [3536.97s] Sure you can.
[Speaker 2] [3538.01s] But she was pretty hardcore about, no.
[Speaker 2] [3540.72s] That was your mom.
[Speaker 2] [3542.09s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3543.13s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3543.77s] That was wild.
[Speaker 1] [3545.29s] It is.
[Speaker 1] [3545.68s] I'm glad you shared that with me.
[Speaker 1] [3547.53s] So, now that you've you've written the book and you are where you are now, if you could go back and talk to your younger self, what would you what would you say to younger David?
[Speaker 2] [3558.10s] Don't worry so much.
[Speaker 2] [3560.26s] That that'd be the very first thing I would say.
[Speaker 2] [3562.42s] It's gonna be fine.
[Speaker 2] [3563.80s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3564.53s] It's gonna be ups and downs.
[Speaker 2] [3565.40s] It's gonna get ugly.
[Speaker 2] [3566.36s] Accept the things that you don't do well.
[Speaker 2] [3568.36s] Accept the things you screw up, the mistakes you made.
[Speaker 2] [3571.09s] It's gonna be okay.
[Speaker 2] [3572.45s] Accept and move on.
[Speaker 2] [3575.80s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3576.05s] I think I was, like a lot of young people, you know, pretty self conscious.
[Speaker 2] [3582.01s] Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [3583.05s] You know, and maybe at times to a fault.
[Speaker 2] [3586.09s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [3588.09s] But I don't think that's unusual for a lot of people, young people.
[Speaker 2] [3593.01s] So especially, you know, those high school years.
[Speaker 2] [3594.76s] My god.
[Speaker 2] [3595.22s] Those are and I think about high school.
[Speaker 2] [3597.01s] High school is awful.
[Speaker 1] [3598.45s] I mean,
[Speaker 2] [3598.76s] I had a good I had a good high school.
[Speaker 2] [3600.61s] I made good friends, and I think I had a good experience.
[Speaker 2] [3603.48s] But you look back at it, it's like, that is just a a mixture of hell.
[Speaker 1] [3608.63s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [3609.35s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [3610.07s] It's not
[Speaker 2] [3610.55s] a good it's not a good experience for a lot of people.
[Speaker 2] [3615.59s] So, yeah, I would say don't worry so much.
[Speaker 2] [3618.39s] Don't don't worry so much.
[Speaker 2] [3620.39s] Don't, don't anticipate that one thing that goes off the rails that it means it's always gonna be off the rails.
[Speaker 2] [3627.11s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [3627.66s] And and I would even say that now with older people because, you know, it the bad things don't don't last and the good things don't last.
[Speaker 1] [3637.55s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [3638.35s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [3638.67s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [3639.07s] Really important lesson.
[Speaker 1] [3640.27s] I think that, I look at the the suicide rate among young people now and anxiety and depression, And and I understand it.
[Speaker 1] [3649.95s] I I get it.
[Speaker 1] [3650.76s] It's because of that that all or nothing mentality, because if things are bad, things are always gonna be bad.
[Speaker 1] [3656.28s] You know, you make a mistake.
[Speaker 1] [3658.91s] And I I know people who have had a fight with their girlfriends, you know, in their twenties and taken their lives, because it's like, oh, this is this is the end.
[Speaker 1] [3669.98s] And I, you know, I remember breaking up with the girlfriend when I was in my that age or getting divorced at that age.
[Speaker 1] [3676.46s] And I remember, you know, thinking this is it.
[Speaker 1] [3678.94s] I'm never gonna find anybody again.
[Speaker 1] [3680.70s] I was 25 years old.
[Speaker 1] [3682.39s] You know?
[Speaker 1] [3683.91s] So, yeah, I think it's that's a great lesson for us to share with our younger selves and and to pass along to our our children now to give them that perspective as much as we can.
[Speaker 1] [3693.00s] We can't we can't let them they can't live in our shoes.
[Speaker 1] [3696.04s] Right?
[Speaker 1] [3696.28s] But we can say, hey.
[Speaker 1] [3697.40s] I felt the same way when I was your age, and it it worked out okay.
[Speaker 2] [3701.40s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3701.96s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [3702.82s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [3703.14s] You know?
[Speaker 2] [3703.70s] And and I guess the only problem with that is when you're young, you're like, yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3707.93s] Whatever, dad.
[Speaker 2] [3709.54s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3709.86s] Exactly.
[Speaker 2] [3710.58s] You're not really accepting what you're hearing.
[Speaker 2] [3712.58s] You're like, yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3713.54s] I that's not true because I know everything right now because I'm funny.
[Speaker 2] [3717.06s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [3717.98s] But, you know, I do think in time, they start to hopefully, they do.
[Speaker 1] [3723.02s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [3723.42s] Well, as we talked about me, I remember, again, sitting at the table with my grandmother when I was 16, and her saying these things to me.
[Speaker 1] [3728.94s] And I'm like, yeah.
[Speaker 1] [3729.90s] Okay.
[Speaker 1] [3730.14s] But you're you're old.
[Speaker 1] [3731.02s] You've always been old.
[Speaker 1] [3731.74s] I thought she was born old.
[Speaker 1] [3732.94s] Right?
[Speaker 2] [3733.26s] She's she's
[Speaker 1] [3734.09s] always been this age.
[Speaker 1] [3735.84s] It took it took a while.
[Speaker 1] [3737.05s] It took probably 20 years before I I started really appreciating it.
[Speaker 2] [3740.80s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3741.28s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3741.45s] I think that's true.
[Speaker 2] [3742.32s] I think my my sons are are starting to get that now.
[Speaker 2] [3745.61s] Well, I'm 3032 31 and 33.
[Speaker 2] [3748.01s] Soon to be 33.
[Speaker 2] [3748.97s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [3749.60s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [3749.76s] That's that's around the age when when your parents start to say, oh, they do know something.
[Speaker 1] [3753.52s] Right?
[Speaker 1] [3753.84s] And I and I Right.
[Speaker 1] [3754.88s] Have to and I have to remind parents of that too.
[Speaker 1] [3757.36s] You know?
[Speaker 1] [3757.60s] Because I I work with parents, and they're like, my kid's 15 or 16.
[Speaker 1] [3760.96s] They don't listen to me.
[Speaker 1] [3761.92s] I'm like, that's what happens.
[Speaker 1] [3763.70s] I said and I said, especially boys, because boys boys are brain damaged.
[Speaker 1] [3767.45s] So they're brain damaged until they're at least 25.
[Speaker 1] [3770.97s] So you have to expect that's the way they're gonna act.
[Speaker 2] [3774.10s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3774.41s] I I've said to my when my daughter my granddaughter, who's only 3, but when she'll act up or be rebellious or try to manipulate, and I'm like, that's what they do.
[Speaker 2] [3785.41s] That's that's finding themselves.
[Speaker 1] [3788.05s] Right.
[Speaker 1] [3788.37s] Right.
[Speaker 2] [3788.77s] They're they're they're pushing the envelope to figure out who I am.
[Speaker 2] [3792.71s] I said, you know, just it's just the deal.
[Speaker 2] [3796.07s] It's just the process.
[Speaker 1] [3797.51s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [3798.39s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [3798.80s] Well, again, all those all those phases that we go through and, you know, like, you and I can look at it and go, yeah.
[Speaker 1] [3803.59s] I I remember.
[Speaker 1] [3804.47s] I remember being in my twenties, and I remember being in my thirties.
[Speaker 1] [3807.11s] And, you know, we can we can we can hopefully maybe one day people in America will get back to the point where we respect and and, the the elderly, the the ancient ones.
[Speaker 2] [3820.95s] You know, I think that might happen sooner than we think because we are getting older as a society by the day.
[Speaker 1] [3826.39s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [3826.72s] That's true.
[Speaker 2] [3827.28s] Where there are a lot more older what you call older people with quotes around it Mhmm.
[Speaker 2] [3831.84s] Now than there were many years ago.
[Speaker 2] [3834.47s] And, Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3835.80s] We're still a youth driven culture, but, you know, the older generation does have a lot of power, and we're gaining in numbers by the day.
[Speaker 2] [3843.72s] So sooner or later, maybe we'll get it.
[Speaker 1] [3845.56s] Well, it's really interesting, you know, not to get into politics too much, but we're we're you know, we're we're looking at the guy over 80 and a guy pushing 80 as our presidential candidates.
[Speaker 1] [3853.89s] And now we have a 60 year old in the race, and people are like, oh, she's young.
[Speaker 2] [3857.41s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3858.61s] When's
[Speaker 1] [3858.86s] the last time we have a 60 year old call young?
[Speaker 2] [3861.26s] That's exactly right.
[Speaker 2] [3863.36s] That's exactly right.
[Speaker 2] [3865.12s] That is very true.
[Speaker 2] [3866.08s] I hadn't thought about it in that way, but that's true.
[Speaker 2] [3868.56s] She's like the young gun now.
[Speaker 2] [3869.92s] Right?
[Speaker 1] [3870.40s] Because she's 60.
[Speaker 2] [3872.00s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3872.48s] Yeah.
[Speaker 2] [3872.72s] It's interesting.
[Speaker 2] [3874.08s] Wow.
[Speaker 1] [3874.40s] David, it's, it's been great getting to know you.
[Speaker 1] [3877.69s] Let people know remind people about the name of the book, where they're gonna find out more about you and where they can get the book.
[Speaker 2] [3884.09s] Well, I appreciate that.
[Speaker 2] [3885.05s] The the book is Daylight Saving Time, the Power of Growing Older.
[Speaker 2] [3889.57s] It's from Collective Inc.
[Speaker 2] [3890.61s] Books in the UK.
[Speaker 2] [3892.29s] It is available anywhere you buy online books.
[Speaker 2] [3895.57s] You can if you're a big bookstore person, and if they don't have it on their shelf, they can order it for you.
[Speaker 2] [3901.33s] That's that's great.
[Speaker 2] [3902.20s] I love bookstores, but I understand the world is different today.
[Speaker 2] [3905.89s] So however you do that, you you can find it.
[Speaker 2] [3909.24s] As far as I'm concerned, me, personally, you can find a lot about me at davidwberner.com.
[Speaker 2] [3915.89s] It's b e r n e r.
[Speaker 2] [3918.05s] I I do a substack.
[Speaker 2] [3919.57s] If you're familiar with substack, I do a substack regular I'm gonna call it regular essay, on all kinds of things.
[Speaker 2] [3929.99s] You can find that through my website or just Google it.
[Speaker 2] [3932.71s] I mean, googling me is you'll find me.
[Speaker 1] [3935.11s] Yeah.
[Speaker 1] [3935.43s] Awesome.
[Speaker 2] [3935.84s] So it's pretty easy.
[Speaker 1] [3937.76s] Well, thanks for being here this afternoon.
[Speaker 1] [3939.99s] I know you're on your way to see your son.
[Speaker 1] [3941.68s] I appreciate you taking the stop to do this, and Absolutely.
[Speaker 1] [3944.97s] Enjoy the time with him and and your granddaughter.
[Speaker 2] [3947.45s] I really enjoyed this conversation.
[Speaker 2] [3949.13s] You, you you you have a great way of, of leading us through, a lot of different, subjects, and I appreciate it, Brian.
[Speaker 2] [3956.73s] It's been a great day.
[Speaker 2] [3957.69s] Thanks.
[Speaker 1] [3958.01s] Great to see you.
[Speaker 1] [3958.48s] Have a great afternoon.
[Speaker 2] [3959.72s] You
[Speaker 1] [3964.45s] too.