Shocking Link Between QUANTUM MECHANICS and CONSCIOUSNESS Unveiled by a Nuclear Physicist! EP 390

In this enlightening episode, Brian Smith interviews Dr. Erik Deumens, a nuclear physicist whose life journey bridges the realms of science and spirituality. Erik shares how his early fascination with quantum mechanics eventually led him to a deeper understanding of human consciousness, sparked by the practice of yoga and the personal growth that followed the loss of his wife. Listen as Erik explains the balance between the physical and spiritual worlds, and how grief can be a powerful catalyst for transformation.

Key Topics Discussed:

• Erik’s academic background in physics and quantum mechanics
• His lifelong study of yoga and spiritual philosophies
• The impact of losing his wife on his personal and spiritual growth
• Exploring the intersection of science and spirituality
• How quantum mechanics may or may not support spiritual worldviews
• The importance of emotional awareness and integrating spirituality into daily life

Guest Bio: Dr. Erik Deumens was born and raised in Antwerp, Belgium. He studied physics and mathematics at the University of Antwerp before earning a PhD in computational nuclear physics. Moving to the U.S. in 1985, Erik became part of the Quantum Theory Project at the University of Florida, where he’s spent decades advancing research in chemical reactions through computer modeling. He now serves as the Director of Research Computing at the University of Florida. Alongside his scientific career, Erik has studied Hatha yoga since the age of 17, delving into spiritual texts and philosophies. His spiritual path deepened after the loss of his wife, leading him to integrate emotional and spiritual practices into his life.

Resources:

• University of Florida Research Computing https://people.clas.ufl.edu/deumens

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Transcript

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Close your eyes and imagine

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what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain,

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the things that bring us grief,

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or challenges,

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challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be.

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We feel like we've been buried.

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But what if like a seed we've been planted

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and having been planted,

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we grow to become a mighty tree.

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Now,

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open your eyes,

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Open your eyes to this way of viewing life.

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Come with me as we explore your true

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infinite eternal nature.

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This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith.

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Eric Dumas grew up in Antwerp, Belgium and studied physics and mathematics at the University of Antwerp. He's been a student of hatha yoga since he was 17.

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He studied philosophical religious texts on world religions,

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including the yoga sutras of Patanjali

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from for which he learned Sanskrit.

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That led to a practice of Asanta yoga until today.

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After his PhD in computational

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nuclear physics, he moved to Florida in 1985 to study at the quantum theory project at the University of Florida in Gainesville, Georgia.

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He ended up working there for several decades building computer models of chemical reactions.

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Since 2011, he's a director of the department of University of Florida,

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the information technology research computing,

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which supports all high performance research computing activities

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and research and educational

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University of Florida's supercuter computer,

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Hypergator.

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So Eric has been studying quantum mechanics since 1976.

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So when people talk about quantum mechanics,

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this is the guy, doctor Dumas, who knows what he's talking about.

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But even after all that studying of yoga,

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of of the physical world, quantum mechanics, etcetera,

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he had a big change when his wife passed away a few years ago, and he realized that he wasn't really well rounded in terms of his life. And that's what we're gonna talk about in this interview.

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The the idea of

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spiritual versus physical

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and how we bring those two things together

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and how we need both to be a well rounded person. So with that, I'm gonna introduce you to the vid the the interview

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with doctor Eric Dumas.

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Well, I saw, your interview. I forgot who it was with, and I really was, intrigued by what you said. So I appreciate you coming on. Ken Marks. Ken Marks. Yeah. Ken Marks. Yeah.

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I really appreciate your your perspective, so I'm, looking forward to sharing that with my audience today.

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Yeah. I'm I'm happy to do that. The these are things,

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that I've been working on

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all my life.

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Somehow, I got on this two track

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pursuit.

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1 is physics and math, and the other one is spiritual

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exploration.

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That's awesome. I love that. And the spiritual exploration

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started

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really you know, I grew up in Belgium,

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Catholic environment,

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and I was an altar boy. And

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but

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I I just by the time I was 9, 10 years old, I felt that

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they didn't have the right answers. They weren't asking the right

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questions, and they didn't have the right answers. Sort of like, well, do this and shut up.

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Mhmm.

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And so that's how I got open to investigate

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other things.

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And that happened,

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at the same time that I was also scientifically

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intrigued.

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Somehow my my mom or my,

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godmother

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bought me a really nice book,

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in that time. So that was around the early 1964,

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1963

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or something.

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Mhmm. About the

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the

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the universe,

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and it had lots of beautiful pictures. And and at that time, there was a lot of advance in

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astronomy and astrophysics.

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Things because we had some new satellites,

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Mount Palomar

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came online. And

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so that book then

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summarized

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for the general public, including

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kids like myself

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Mhmm. What what stuff was happening, and I was just totally fascinated by that. And then, of course, we also had the the space

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exploration,

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you know, going on.

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So I was just totally fascinated

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by the science, and and I wanted to be an astronaut

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and and,

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go and travel to the planets. You know? Make a fast spaceship.

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And and then

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I learned

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in one of these books

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about,

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Einstein and the special theory of relativity that you couldn't go faster than light.

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And so that's where

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I sort of decided,

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wow. That's that's not good. Because if I wanted to go to any of these other stars, my dream was to go to the Andromeda and Nebula because I thought it was a beautiful

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Milky Way, and it was 2,000,000 light years away. Oh. That means it takes 2,000,000 years even at the speed of light. You know? That's just

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not gonna happen.

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So I I determined that I was gonna investigate and prove Einstein wrong and make a spaceship that could go faster than the speed of light.

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That would be cool.

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So that's that's how I got on that that track sort of.

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Yeah. And then you, you majored in physics. Right? Yeah. I I I went to college, and I I took

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a

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physics, and I also took math.

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And and then I did my masters in in physics, general theory of relativity,

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and then I did my PhD

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in

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quantum chemistry

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in in nuclear physics, actually

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Wow. And

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computational nuclear physics. And that's how I fell in love with computers.

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And so

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my professional life has been science and computers.

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Mhmm. But at the same time, I was always

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exploring this yoga path

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of figuring out spiritual

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you know, what's the truth here? And you have all these people

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saying things.

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And I also felt because I was very familiar with science and how how you do the scientific thinking and making your argument,

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it always sort of struck me that some of the people

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who are talking about spiritual matters

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like to call in scientific

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things that they heard or read about in the popular press

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as evidence

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and support for their spiritual

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views of the world. Mhmm. And I always felt that they were off the mark. The majority of them are, like, totally off the mark. And and that that is,

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something that I always wanted to figure out more precisely. Well, how do you explain this better

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so that the general public

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and the people who are in spiritual matters, but not licensed physicists or mathematicians,

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can understand that there is a a big difference and that these things that sort of from a sign in the scientific

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popular

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literature

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are described

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that they don't match

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to the spiritual. And you can't say, oh, that's evidence that this is, you know, like like, some of the stuff in quantum mechanics

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happens, and then people say, oh, this is evidence that the world is the spiritual worldview is is correct or is is supported by

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this scientific thing. And there's a lot it doesn't work that way because

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people use the same words,

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but the people who use them

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within the field of expertise

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attach very different meanings to them. Mhmm. Okay. Can you give me an example?

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Yeah.

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Well,

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we we can get into some examples, but

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one of the things that I want to sort of

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put is that

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communication,

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and there are people who who

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study the theory of of of communication.

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But when it really comes down to it, it's just a matter of tokens. When you have a language

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and you have words,

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it's a token.

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And

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we agree that that token

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means something, and what it means has to be connected to your personal experience.

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Mhmm.

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If

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you don't have any experience

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of being

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weightless,

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and I try to explain to you what weightless means,

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then

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it's not

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going to be

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very well understood. Or if you've never eaten something that's really sour

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and I talk about it something that's sour,

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you're just going to make some extrapolation. And I can make some analogy. I can come up with some

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roundabout description,

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but you're never really gonna get it until you have that experience.

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And that's where

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you have an example. So let me talk about an example, and it's the word energy.

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Yeah.

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Right? So energy

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has

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is used in in a lot of

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context. But for our discussion, there are two meanings that or two uses that are important. 1 is in the scientific community,

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there is definitely

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energy.

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Physics has a very clear definition of energy,

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and it's called kinetic energy, potential energy. There's a formula for it.

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And what it means is that

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if you have something like a car that's driving,

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you need energy to get it moving.

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And then once it is moving, it has energy that gets released when it runs into, like, a tree or something else.

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And then

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in in sort of human life, we also talk about energy.

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And clearly, some of that energy is the same. Like, if you

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are

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picking up a glass

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with your arm,

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your body has to supply energy to the muscles. And there are all kinds of chemical reactions that happen and and things in your muscles, they contract.

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And energy

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gets conveyed to that glass, and the glass then

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really fights against the force of gravity that wants to keep it down, and you manage to lift it up and you can drink. Mhmm.

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That is the correct

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meaning of energy

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that

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relates directly

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to the way energy

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is used in physics or science or engineering.

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Mhmm. But at the same time,

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you can wake up in the morning

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and just feel like,

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wow. I'm tired. I don't have any energy today.

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And that energy

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is very different

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from

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the there's some relation

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that if you have been running a marathon,

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at the very end, your body is depleted of energy and you're tired, and it's the physical energy that's gone. Mhmm. But as a matter of fact,

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many of the runners,

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when they get their runner high,

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they they just finish their run-in the morning.

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They are tired. Their energy

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reserves in their body are depleted, and they need to eat some and drink some.

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But they actually feel really good. So they actually feel all energetic, and many of them actually say, I'm now ready for the day. Mhmm.

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That notion of energy is very different,

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and that is what

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eastern philosophies

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are calling chi or prana. Right? Right. But they're not the same, and they and they and we have some awareness of them. We can feel them, and there are people who can more expertly control them in their bodies and and and you can use them in Reiki to do some healing and all that kind of stuff. But it's not

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the energy of physics, and it's not the energy of engineering. It's not the energy of cars. It's not the energies that take the spacecraft

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to

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launch and get into space. Mhmm.

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And

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but then when these spiritual people talk about energy, they say, oh, there's this statement being made in the physics

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literature, and they didn't really study. They don't have a degree in physics.

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And they say, oh, it sounds just the same as what I was saying that I feel really good after I meditate. I said, yeah. But they really they should they shouldn't use the same word. But, of course, in language, we cannot be that

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precise and invent a new word. Right? So Right. We we give double meanings to multiple words, and the context is important.

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So that's the what I'm trying to say. And energy is a beautiful example, but there are multiple things like that. Yeah. But people then makes extrapolations

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because something sounds like a really nice catchy sentence.

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And then they say, oh, that catchy sentence sounds exactly like the catchy sentence in this completely different domain of spiritual

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awareness.

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And then you equate them and you say they're the same seed. They now prove that it's the same. It was like, well, you can't say that. You're just misleading everybody.

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It's not helpful.

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Well, that's a really good point because, we've I think we've all heard in the spiritual community that they'll say, well, science says energy can be neither created nor destroyed. Therefore, we are eternal beings because we are energy.

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And that's that's the way I've heard it. And I and I agree. My degree is in chemical engineering, not nearly as as deep as you, but, yeah, these are 2 different types of of energy.

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But I think there is some things, I think and I think you might agree there's some things in quantum mechanics that do indicate that the universe is not as as simple as our materialist friends have told us it is.

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I

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don't agree with that. Okay.

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Because

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there is actually a problem with quantum mechanics

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or with the way we talk about quantum mechanics. And this is an interesting year to do this

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because the

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all the physics

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societies in the world have agreed that 2025

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next year is the 100 year

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anniversary of quantum mechanics. Mhmm.

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So there's gonna be a lot of people talking about it.

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What happened in 2025 and 2026

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in in 1925

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and 1926

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Mhmm. Is that people came up with a mathematical

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formalism

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of how to do calculations

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about the quantum world.

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But somehow,

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because of the dominant role that Bohr had,

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people did not investigate

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as deeply as they should

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how do we talk about these mathematical

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formulas. So people now memorize these formulas or

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they work with them, and and it takes a lot of study.

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And they still use

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essentially

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words

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from classical physics

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that were created and refined since Newton

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without

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really recognizing

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that we need to do this more deeply and more precisely. But Bohr was so eager to try and get

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the final saying and agreement among the physicist

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community

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that we have

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it's done. The theory is done.

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Because with

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Einstein's accomplishment of special relativity and general relativity, he came up with some brand new concepts,

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but they were so clear and they were not as

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disruptive as the quantum concepts.

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So within a very short time after people discussed about it, they all agreed, yep. This is the way it is. Mhmm. In quantum mechanics, that was not the case. And and, actually, the young Heisenberg has if you read some of the literature or or and some of the letters that he said and the discussions he had with Einstein and Bohr and others,

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he was open. He said, look, we have this mathematics,

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and this mathematics is not clear. And and some of the way that we talk about it

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doesn't really

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accurately

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map to what we do mathematically. So there are 2 different they're a little bit disconnected,

286

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and that leads to all kinds of misunderstandings.

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00:16:52,205 --> 00:16:53,105

But somehow

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00:16:53,725 --> 00:16:54,225

in

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the 2 years after

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1925,

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he

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because he was a young student, PhD student,

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and was his mentor, and

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and sort of talked him out of it. And then he basically fell in line and followed

295

00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:14,920

dogma and and never argued with it again.

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But what has happened over in the 100 years since, there are several occasions where we found that people said, okay.

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If you think about it and use the the

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the concepts

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and the words that Bohr tells us to use, we're gonna

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expect this to happen.

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And then they did the experiment, and it didn't happen that way. Then people started to look at it more carefully and and more deeply, and they did the mathematical calculations and they went, oh,

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actually, the mathematics doesn't say it. It's just our words misled us,

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and the mathematics

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comes out exactly the way the experiment is.

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But somehow that dichotomy

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has never been resolved, and people are still

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trying to use the words in the concept because it's easier and quicker,

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then you have to sit down and do all these mathematical calculations. And even in the last decade when people are building these quantum computers,

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there are several things. Now you have to do some very fine,

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engineering of equipment and pieces of machine, and they all have to work exactly like

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like they need to work in order to make it be a quantum computer. Right. And

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they start out with some vague concepts because that's typically the way we start. And then they go to the lab, and they try to make it, and it doesn't work. And then they need to go back to the drawing board and do some more math. And then finally, they figure out how to do it. And it's been a challenge. And that is because

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we're not talking about it correctly. Now that's

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that talking about quantum mechanics

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00:18:48,615 --> 00:18:49,674

is what is reflected

316

00:18:50,294 --> 00:18:52,635

in the popular press. And that is why

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00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:59,220

people who have these spiritual visions saying, oh, there is a match. But that match is disconnected

318

00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:01,540

from the mathematical

319

00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:02,980

formulation

320

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and is not in agreement with experiment.

321

00:19:06,664 --> 00:19:11,005

And so it's not it sounds good, but it's just some interpretation

322

00:19:11,705 --> 00:19:14,445

that somebody makes up, and it has no substance.

323

00:19:15,065 --> 00:19:20,365

Interesting. So is there anything quantum mechanics can tell us about spirituality? Is there any connection at all?

324

00:19:22,620 --> 00:19:26,559

In some ways, the way you have to think of it is you have

325

00:19:27,340 --> 00:19:28,159

the world

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00:19:28,860 --> 00:19:29,360

is

327

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realized in awareness or consciousness.

328

00:19:33,419 --> 00:19:33,919

Mhmm.

329

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And

330

00:19:36,395 --> 00:19:36,895

everything

331

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that is sort of the material

332

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realization, the world that we live in, is governed by the laws of physics, including quantum mechanics, and that's just the mechanics

333

00:19:47,850 --> 00:19:48,350

of

334

00:19:48,809 --> 00:19:53,390

of the world that we live in. Okay. So very much by by

335

00:19:53,770 --> 00:19:55,549

by definition or by construction

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almost,

337

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it is not consciousness. It comes out of consciousness,

338

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but it's not consciousness.

339

00:20:02,385 --> 00:20:02,885

Consciousness

340

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is is realized and incarnates

341

00:20:06,385 --> 00:20:08,565

in the physical world, which has these laws.

342

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And the laws provide some restriction, but they're not fully

343

00:20:13,985 --> 00:20:21,820

restrictive so that you can still act out and and do the thing that we are supposed to do as as awareness and as souls,

344

00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:23,260

which is learning.

345

00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,300

So the way you should think of it is that physics

346

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and the material world is like a building,

347

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and the souls and the people

348

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are

349

00:20:35,575 --> 00:20:38,554

going into these buildings to learn stuff,

350

00:20:39,095 --> 00:20:40,875

like going to a school. Mhmm.

351

00:20:41,335 --> 00:20:41,835

And

352

00:20:42,455 --> 00:20:43,434

all the laws

353

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of quantum mechanics

354

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and classical physics and electrodynamics

355

00:20:48,140 --> 00:20:50,960

and chemical physics, all these laws

356

00:20:51,420 --> 00:20:52,240

are basically

357

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the engineering specs of that building.

358

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It's like, okay. If I go and I push the button on the elevator, the elevator will come. I can then the doors open. I can go in, and and and it describes how the elevator works. Mhmm. And the elevator and and

359

00:21:07,515 --> 00:21:12,015

using the elevator to go from one floor to the next is useful as part of your learning

360

00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:15,880

expertise because you need to go to this class that's on the 2nd floor or whatever.

361

00:21:16,740 --> 00:21:23,000

And the air conditioning comes on, and the air conditioning is important to to make sure that the building is livable so that you can actually

362

00:21:23,620 --> 00:21:28,404

pay attention while you're learning or something like that. Just think of it that way. Mhmm. But

363

00:21:28,705 --> 00:21:31,284

that doesn't mean that the function of the elevator

364

00:21:31,585 --> 00:21:32,085

or

365

00:21:32,544 --> 00:21:36,085

the function of the air conditioner is in and of itself

366

00:21:36,784 --> 00:21:37,524

a spiritual

367

00:21:38,385 --> 00:21:40,485

activity, but it is created

368

00:21:41,105 --> 00:21:42,565

just like in human society.

369

00:21:43,370 --> 00:21:56,990

We have nature, and we built these buildings in order for us to have our society be more efficient and and, you know, be protect from the elements so that we can concentrate on certain things and right? So so that's how you should think of it. And so physics

370

00:21:57,370 --> 00:21:58,430

and quantum mechanics

371

00:21:58,815 --> 00:22:00,434

is part of that

372

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aspect,

373

00:22:02,095 --> 00:22:03,075

which is important,

374

00:22:03,615 --> 00:22:06,034

but in and of itself, it's not spiritual.

375

00:22:06,654 --> 00:22:15,620

Interesting. It's out of it it's created out of the spirit creates it because we need it. Mhmm. Like, we build buildings in our society because that's

376

00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,220

gonna make our society

377

00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,140

work better. Mhmm.

378

00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,580

But it is not you cannot say, oh, because

379

00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:24,980

elevators work this way,

380

00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,315

you know, it it it

381

00:22:28,615 --> 00:22:30,075

makes human society

382

00:22:30,775 --> 00:22:33,355

a better society. You know? If you have better elevators,

383

00:22:34,135 --> 00:22:35,915

you're not gonna get fundamentally,

384

00:22:36,455 --> 00:22:36,955

morally

385

00:22:39,095 --> 00:22:42,075

and better people or happier people or people that are,

386

00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,580

you know, more friendly to each other or less violent or whatever. The elevator

387

00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:55,880

helps create a better environment. It's useful. But in and of itself, it is not going to make people better or more loving or

388

00:22:56,725 --> 00:23:01,365

you know what I'm trying to say? I think I do. So what I ought to hear you saying is that,

389

00:23:01,684 --> 00:23:06,264

there's been and and it's really I'm trying to kinda wrap my head around this because,

390

00:23:06,884 --> 00:23:09,304

you know, for many years or for millennia,

391

00:23:09,605 --> 00:23:17,900

people have been spiritual beings. We we knew that we were spirits we knew that we were spirit. We knew that we came here for a purpose. We knew that we we went on, etcetera.

392

00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,060

And then I think it's about 400 years ago, we got really caught up with our science

393

00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,475

and said, okay. Science now science is everything. So we have to look every everything is material.

394

00:23:28,175 --> 00:23:34,275

And you're saying, I think, that it's actually science is great for what it does, but spirituality is a different thing.

395

00:23:35,455 --> 00:23:39,340

Exactly. And and, actually, Mona Sobhani actually surprise is is

396

00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:40,539

in her book,

397

00:23:42,519 --> 00:23:47,820

describes that very much because she's describes her her journey from being a

398

00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:49,100

convinced

399

00:23:50,885 --> 00:23:52,105

scientific materialist

400

00:23:52,725 --> 00:23:54,985

to seeing that that doesn't cover everything.

401

00:23:56,164 --> 00:23:57,284

Yeah. And,

402

00:23:57,845 --> 00:23:58,725

and and that's

403

00:23:59,445 --> 00:24:00,184

so so

404

00:24:01,525 --> 00:24:02,905

science is very important,

405

00:24:03,550 --> 00:24:05,650

but then make the extrapolation

406

00:24:06,430 --> 00:24:09,170

that, okay, now we have managed to

407

00:24:09,630 --> 00:24:10,130

understand

408

00:24:10,910 --> 00:24:13,410

so much of the world around us,

409

00:24:14,350 --> 00:24:15,490

we can make this

410

00:24:16,605 --> 00:24:17,105

glib

411

00:24:17,485 --> 00:24:17,985

extrapolation.

412

00:24:18,925 --> 00:24:23,185

We got it all. Yeah. We we the brain is so complicated.

413

00:24:24,285 --> 00:24:30,945

Everything that the brain does and everything that we see people do, including all their spiritual

414

00:24:31,405 --> 00:24:31,905

aspirations,

415

00:24:33,299 --> 00:24:34,520

are just emergent

416

00:24:35,140 --> 00:24:38,120

things that happen in the brain. The brain is like a big computer,

417

00:24:38,660 --> 00:24:47,080

and it can do all these things and they and and it's so complicated that it can do all these complicated things, all these emotions, all these feelings, all these

418

00:24:47,415 --> 00:24:48,555

spiritual insights,

419

00:24:49,255 --> 00:24:50,715

all that is just

420

00:24:51,175 --> 00:24:53,675

emergent. So the only thing we need is

421

00:24:54,055 --> 00:24:55,275

we have this clockwork

422

00:24:56,055 --> 00:24:59,995

Right. Of of material foundation. It's described by science,

423

00:25:00,510 --> 00:25:02,130

and everything else is just

424

00:25:02,430 --> 00:25:10,770

consequence of that. You know? And it's the same thing with AI. Right? We we make this machine, and AI now has this stuff. And and that's also what leads to,

425

00:25:11,550 --> 00:25:14,050

currently, the debate. Is AI really

426

00:25:14,804 --> 00:25:16,024

artificial intelligence

427

00:25:16,725 --> 00:25:18,105

where we have this again,

428

00:25:18,485 --> 00:25:20,825

the word is going to be mixed up.

429

00:25:21,764 --> 00:25:28,504

Is that true intelligence? Is that, like, human awareness? Is that Right. So that people start getting in these fuzzy

430

00:25:28,804 --> 00:25:29,304

conversations.

431

00:25:29,990 --> 00:25:32,410

Is it intelligence? Well, it is intelligent

432

00:25:32,710 --> 00:25:41,850

in some sense that if you define an intelligence test of being able to write an essay that when you read it is correctly grammar

433

00:25:42,230 --> 00:25:47,905

of English or or French or whatever, then you could say, yeah. It's intelligent because it passes that test.

434

00:25:48,445 --> 00:25:51,185

But when we sort of talk about intelligence,

435

00:25:52,525 --> 00:26:01,230

we have a much broader feeling that, yeah, we can write a text that is correct grammar, but there are all kinds of other things that we can do and can

436

00:26:02,430 --> 00:26:04,450

and, again, people make this extrapolation.

437

00:26:04,990 --> 00:26:13,365

Right. Well, you know, analogy I I use when people would talk about AI is, like, when I was in in high school, I had a calculator that did math really, really well,

438

00:26:14,625 --> 00:26:18,965

much better than I could. Right? But nobody ever said your your calculator is conscious.

439

00:26:19,345 --> 00:26:30,000

But because these large language models can do that same thing with language, we say, well, then they therefore, they must be conscious, and I think that is a that's a mistake. That's a that's a leap that we don't it's not really justified.

440

00:26:30,780 --> 00:26:31,920

But the thing is,

441

00:26:32,460 --> 00:26:36,640

and going back to the spiritual people trying to use quantum mechanics and

442

00:26:36,940 --> 00:26:42,575

you think about you said, well, why are they doing this? Well, because we come we become so we worship science.

443

00:26:43,195 --> 00:26:49,695

And so the spiritual people feel like we've been squeezed out. We're called woo woo. We're called, you know, delusional.

444

00:26:50,394 --> 00:26:51,934

We are wishful thinking.

445

00:26:52,394 --> 00:27:01,900

So we're grasping to try to say, look. Science shows that we're right. I think that's where that motivation comes from. No. I fully understand that, but you see, this is where

446

00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,140

I think those teachers

447

00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,540

are missing the true mark.

448

00:27:07,304 --> 00:27:11,565

Because what they are doing is they're trying to explain to other people

449

00:27:12,264 --> 00:27:14,605

like, I'm not I'm not a fully spiritual

450

00:27:14,985 --> 00:27:20,524

realized kind of person. I've thought about this a lot, but I know I'm not fully there, for sure. Mhmm.

451

00:27:22,059 --> 00:27:24,399

So some of those real realized

452

00:27:24,700 --> 00:27:25,200

masters,

453

00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:26,559

they have a particular

454

00:27:26,940 --> 00:27:27,919

state of awareness,

455

00:27:28,779 --> 00:27:32,399

and they're not talking about it, and then they wanna convey this to you and I.

456

00:27:33,515 --> 00:27:37,375

And then they sort of say, well, what analogy can I use?

457

00:27:37,995 --> 00:27:41,534

And then they find that some words are published in the literature

458

00:27:42,235 --> 00:27:48,174

about science that sort of resonate with that. And then they say, oh, you know, if you think of science or if you think of that,

459

00:27:48,730 --> 00:27:51,710

it's the same thing. Mhmm. But that's where, again,

460

00:27:52,409 --> 00:27:56,429

they are trying to con they're using a word or or a sentence,

461

00:27:57,289 --> 00:27:58,750

and they're trying to convey

462

00:27:59,850 --> 00:28:02,590

call up an awareness inside you

463

00:28:02,970 --> 00:28:09,045

that you don't have or I don't have because I never had that experience. So they're talking about the quietness

464

00:28:09,345 --> 00:28:11,285

or whatever, the the bliss

465

00:28:11,825 --> 00:28:18,005

of pure awareness or something. Let's take that as an example. Right. I've never aware been aware of that.

466

00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:24,100

So now they're gonna say, oh, we can we can have this analogy. But what they should do is like, okay.

467

00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:25,860

Let's try and find

468

00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:27,700

a prescription

469

00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,140

and a process

470

00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,260

where I can teach you, Eric,

471

00:28:33,245 --> 00:28:39,345

to go through all these steps, and then you will have that awareness. And then we can say, okay. That awareness,

472

00:28:40,125 --> 00:28:47,745

I call with this word. Mhmm. And then when the future, when I use that word, you can call up that memory of that awareness, and you're fine.

473

00:28:48,350 --> 00:28:52,130

So if we're trying to map all these other concepts and these old concepts

474

00:28:52,830 --> 00:28:53,890

are very close,

475

00:28:54,350 --> 00:28:57,170

then that's helpful. But if they're not very close,

476

00:28:57,550 --> 00:28:58,690

they're not that helpful.

477

00:28:59,390 --> 00:29:01,250

And because these spiritual leaders

478

00:29:01,774 --> 00:29:04,674

don't really know enough about science

479

00:29:05,534 --> 00:29:09,715

and it sort of sounds good to use that, they sort of make that extrapolation,

480

00:29:10,735 --> 00:29:12,914

and it's not helpful. Yeah.

481

00:29:13,375 --> 00:29:19,890

So so how do we help people understand what what you're describing, the fact that the material is actually derivative

482

00:29:20,270 --> 00:29:24,929

from consciousness as opposed to the other way around? How do we how do we talk to people about that?

483

00:29:27,245 --> 00:29:30,544

Well, that that's where you have to sort of get

484

00:29:31,005 --> 00:29:31,505

people

485

00:29:32,205 --> 00:29:35,184

into some practice. You have to say, look. Intellectually,

486

00:29:35,565 --> 00:29:38,625

we're not gonna do this. And and and, actually, this is

487

00:29:39,005 --> 00:29:40,625

what happened in my case.

488

00:29:41,370 --> 00:29:42,030

I grew

489

00:29:42,810 --> 00:29:43,950

up as a complete

490

00:29:44,810 --> 00:29:45,630

brain geek.

491

00:29:46,090 --> 00:29:47,710

You know? In my life,

492

00:29:48,650 --> 00:29:49,150

everything

493

00:29:49,530 --> 00:30:00,795

was the brain was first. And and and Mhmm. I had a reasonable brain. Anything that I wanted to study, I could just put attention to, and Mhmm. I could learn it, and it was good.

494

00:30:01,575 --> 00:30:06,395

And I have a reasonable awareness of my body in the sense that my body

495

00:30:06,695 --> 00:30:07,675

works well,

496

00:30:08,660 --> 00:30:09,559

And I,

497

00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:12,679

you know, I didn't do massive,

498

00:30:13,860 --> 00:30:14,360

sports,

499

00:30:14,980 --> 00:30:20,280

but I've been a scuba diver. I did lots of swimming and and scuba diving.

500

00:30:20,740 --> 00:30:22,360

So I'm physically active

501

00:30:22,660 --> 00:30:23,480

doing things,

502

00:30:24,405 --> 00:30:27,465

and I've been doing Hatha yoga all my life.

503

00:30:27,925 --> 00:30:32,825

So my body just works fine for me. You know? I have reasonable strength and whatever.

504

00:30:33,205 --> 00:30:35,385

But I never really had this

505

00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:36,980

interest

506

00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:38,420

to explore

507

00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:40,100

what sensations

508

00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,860

do I get from the world

509

00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,500

from my body to really focus on my body.

510

00:30:50,005 --> 00:30:50,745

And then

511

00:30:51,365 --> 00:30:52,184

the third

512

00:30:53,365 --> 00:31:01,225

component of, I think, a human being is emotional life. My emotional life was, like, totally quiet. I never had any massive,

513

00:31:03,044 --> 00:31:03,544

things

514

00:31:04,390 --> 00:31:06,250

going on. No big traumas.

515

00:31:07,350 --> 00:31:09,530

I'm sort of a very quiet person,

516

00:31:09,990 --> 00:31:10,890

little shy.

517

00:31:12,070 --> 00:31:13,049

I I remember

518

00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:22,225

one time in my life now, I'm 69 years old, where I was really mad at something, and it turned out it was unjust. I was mad at a particular guy,

519

00:31:23,085 --> 00:31:27,664

for doing something, and he was just doing his job. And and I got it wrong, and then

520

00:31:28,284 --> 00:31:30,304

I was so I that was

521

00:31:30,605 --> 00:31:35,184

the maddest I was ever was. And and to the rest, you know, I just don't get mad.

522

00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,620

I try to help people. I'm just nice. But, again, I don't have any deep,

523

00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:40,880

emotional

524

00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:42,580

rich emotional life.

525

00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,820

And it wasn't until after my wife died,

526

00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:48,980

now two and a half years ago,

527

00:31:49,515 --> 00:31:50,015

that

528

00:31:50,315 --> 00:31:56,495

I was guided by her to to explore things differently and with some of my friends, including Debbie.

529

00:31:56,955 --> 00:31:57,455

Mhmm.

530

00:31:58,235 --> 00:31:59,455

I I got

531

00:32:00,475 --> 00:32:00,975

much

532

00:32:01,620 --> 00:32:02,120

into,

533

00:32:03,380 --> 00:32:05,880

exploring these other aspects, and it's only

534

00:32:06,340 --> 00:32:07,960

in the last 6 months

535

00:32:08,260 --> 00:32:09,480

that I really

536

00:32:10,020 --> 00:32:11,720

could feel my heart

537

00:32:12,260 --> 00:32:14,520

Mhmm. Open and and that emotional

538

00:32:14,900 --> 00:32:15,400

thing.

539

00:32:16,020 --> 00:32:16,520

So

540

00:32:17,235 --> 00:32:26,455

that is to give you an answer to there are things that I would read about in the spiritual philosophical texts. You know? And and I I even

541

00:32:26,915 --> 00:32:29,655

studied Sanskrit to try and read some of the

542

00:32:30,550 --> 00:32:31,370

yoga sutras

543

00:32:32,310 --> 00:32:32,970

and other,

544

00:32:34,390 --> 00:32:35,690

texts to really

545

00:32:36,070 --> 00:32:37,050

understand them.

546

00:32:37,510 --> 00:32:40,090

And so I have a good intellectual, but

547

00:32:40,550 --> 00:32:47,985

these words never meant anything because I had no I didn't know what they were talking about. I didn't have a personal experience emotionally

548

00:32:48,685 --> 00:32:52,645

or the sensation, the detailed sensation in my body or or

549

00:32:53,085 --> 00:32:58,065

because I just use my body like a machine, and it was fine. And I I didn't have any complaints.

550

00:32:58,365 --> 00:33:10,620

So I was like, okay. Yeah. You know, it's like, I buy a car. I drive the car. The car gets me where I want to know, and I have no interest whatsoever in figuring out how the car works or what details of the car. There are some things that I've never used

551

00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,620

in my car. Mhmm.

552

00:33:13,095 --> 00:33:17,434

And then there are some other things that like, this emotional life I never had.

553

00:33:17,815 --> 00:33:20,794

And that is where I think if you wanna get to

554

00:33:22,534 --> 00:33:23,755

convey to people

555

00:33:24,455 --> 00:33:27,595

what spiritual is, you have to work towards

556

00:33:28,150 --> 00:33:30,410

creating that balance. You have to have some

557

00:33:30,870 --> 00:33:31,370

intellectual

558

00:33:31,750 --> 00:33:40,170

acuity and awareness with the concepts, but they are not gonna be the answer. And that can take you there. For some people, they may be the path in

559

00:33:40,835 --> 00:33:41,895

to get started,

560

00:33:42,195 --> 00:33:47,095

and then they go but for other people, it might be emotion, and then you have to guide them

561

00:33:47,715 --> 00:33:49,255

to work on this emotional,

562

00:33:50,115 --> 00:33:50,615

awareness

563

00:33:51,315 --> 00:33:59,040

and teach them some intellectual concepts that they can talk about these emotional rather than just feel them and be all puzzled.

564

00:33:59,420 --> 00:34:08,080

Right. And and the same, you have to get to your body and be aware of your body and that that that it's a very important and unique instrument,

565

00:34:09,865 --> 00:34:14,285

to learn. Because the the whole basic thing is that if you're pure awareness,

566

00:34:15,945 --> 00:34:19,085

you can't feel anything. You know? You you just have this bliss,

567

00:34:19,545 --> 00:34:22,365

and we need the body and the brain and emotions

568

00:34:22,745 --> 00:34:28,469

and that are to to to get to this experience and then get the message and and get the lesson.

569

00:34:28,770 --> 00:34:39,935

Mhmm. So in instead of just talking about it, which is, of course, the way you start doing it if you wanna publish it in a book. Right. Right. A book is not enough. You need the books,

570

00:34:40,315 --> 00:34:48,014

but you also need the places where you get together and then you do some exercises. And they can be all kinds of exercises. It could be yoga. It could be,

571

00:34:48,474 --> 00:34:56,120

some sport. It could be whatever. Mhmm. And then you have to also do the emotional thing. One of the things that I never in my did my life did

572

00:34:57,140 --> 00:34:59,400

was reading romantic levels novels.

573

00:34:59,780 --> 00:35:00,840

Mhmm. And so

574

00:35:01,380 --> 00:35:01,880

recently,

575

00:35:02,715 --> 00:35:07,215

I found on my wife's Kindle, which I inherited, there was one book that was recommended

576

00:35:07,515 --> 00:35:11,215

to her. And there was another one that I saw she had started

577

00:35:11,755 --> 00:35:13,135

reading the first eight pages

578

00:35:13,515 --> 00:35:14,815

before she died.

579

00:35:15,390 --> 00:35:19,250

And I decided or I have this inkling, which I never would have done before.

580

00:35:19,710 --> 00:35:30,369

I said, I need to read that. And I read it, and and I felt that for the first time, it sort of really resonated with me, and it gave me an experience that I had never had before, a depth

581

00:35:30,865 --> 00:35:34,165

of of engagement with the characters, and it was a romance.

582

00:35:34,945 --> 00:35:37,665

You know? I I would read books that were,

583

00:35:38,225 --> 00:35:38,725

scientific

584

00:35:39,585 --> 00:35:40,085

or,

585

00:35:41,585 --> 00:35:42,085

historical

586

00:35:42,865 --> 00:35:43,860

record kind of,

587

00:35:44,580 --> 00:35:45,400

things about

588

00:35:45,780 --> 00:35:49,160

how did America get discovered and how did, you know,

589

00:35:50,980 --> 00:35:52,680

but not this

590

00:35:53,220 --> 00:35:54,520

romantic feeling.

591

00:35:56,180 --> 00:35:59,480

And and so that's a a new experience that I never had before.

592

00:36:00,234 --> 00:36:07,855

The reason I'm just saying that is that people talk about stuff, but if that if the words don't match a true experience,

593

00:36:09,035 --> 00:36:17,930

then they're just words, and they're very easily distorted. And now in retrospect, one of the things that I think was wrong about my Catholic education

594

00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:27,769

is they came up with these words, and they didn't mean anything. And they weren't even trying to tell them what they meant. It's like, you just gotta do it. Yeah. And and they were just it was just, like,

595

00:36:28,095 --> 00:36:28,835

totally empty. And, I

596

00:36:29,215 --> 00:36:30,435

mean, they they could've

597

00:36:30,815 --> 00:36:31,955

instead of using

598

00:36:32,415 --> 00:36:33,475

the Dutch words,

599

00:36:33,935 --> 00:36:36,994

they could've used some other gobbledygook words

600

00:36:37,695 --> 00:36:43,720

and say, well, that means you do this, and that means you do that, and that's it. You know? Yeah.

601

00:36:44,020 --> 00:36:46,359

So so tell me about your wife. What's her name?

602

00:36:47,060 --> 00:36:48,359

Elizabeth. Elizabeth.

603

00:36:48,740 --> 00:36:51,000

And was she a spiritual person?

604

00:36:52,740 --> 00:37:03,325

Yeah. She and I I mean, not as intense as I was, but she was very, very spiritual, but more sort of in a natural flowing way. And actually, there's a lot of thing that that she taught me

605

00:37:03,705 --> 00:37:06,685

about life and spiritual and many of the things

606

00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:16,579

she was engaged in my spiritual quest too. She would basically say, oh, I found this, and and we would go to a meditation session together with Debbie for many years.

607

00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:23,055

And she pointed out, so, oh, I found this. Maybe that's something of interest to you because she knew that I was working

608

00:37:23,755 --> 00:37:26,175

on this and and and was very supportive

609

00:37:26,475 --> 00:37:27,935

of me doing it.

610

00:37:28,475 --> 00:37:30,015

And she did some of it herself.

611

00:37:31,035 --> 00:37:32,015

She did not

612

00:37:32,395 --> 00:37:33,775

she was always amazed,

613

00:37:34,795 --> 00:37:35,295

by

614

00:37:36,190 --> 00:37:37,070

the fact that,

615

00:37:37,790 --> 00:37:39,010

if I decided

616

00:37:39,870 --> 00:37:40,770

to do something

617

00:37:41,150 --> 00:37:48,290

or if she convinced me that something needed to be done, I could sort of turn a flip flip a switch. It's like you need to go

618

00:37:48,590 --> 00:37:49,090

exercise

619

00:37:49,935 --> 00:37:51,955

more because you're not exercising enough.

620

00:37:52,415 --> 00:37:58,035

And then I would say, okay. I'll sign up, and then I would start this routine 3 days a week,

621

00:37:58,975 --> 00:38:12,150

the next day, and I would just do it. Mhmm. And and it's like I flip. I said, if if it's rationally necessary, I'll do it. And I would did it. And it frustrated the hell out of her because she was trying to do certain things and and,

622

00:38:14,210 --> 00:38:15,110

get into

623

00:38:16,715 --> 00:38:22,795

a new habit, and it was hard to get into that establish a rhythm for doing that. And then she will always

624

00:38:23,435 --> 00:38:25,295

it's just unfair that you just

625

00:38:25,755 --> 00:38:30,015

say you have to do this, and then you just do it. Right. Yeah. I I understand that.

626

00:38:30,380 --> 00:38:44,400

So, but it sounds like you you you're saying until until she passed, you didn't really feel this this rich emotional life. And I think I heard you say that she's teaching you that. So is she your is she guiding you now? Yes. Yes. Awesome. Yeah.

627

00:38:45,335 --> 00:38:49,755

So in in some ways, I feel she's with me all the time. It's not that I hear her voice,

628

00:38:50,135 --> 00:38:56,394

but there are these thoughts that pop in my head that I know are not the thoughts that I would have had,

629

00:38:56,694 --> 00:39:03,560

you know, more than 3 years ago in in my life before. They they're not direct thoughts. Yeah. So I don't know where they come from,

630

00:39:03,860 --> 00:39:07,960

but I think they come from her because they are aligned with what she would say

631

00:39:08,500 --> 00:39:22,975

and do, and then I do them. Mhmm. I've learned to pay attention to them. Yeah. Well, it's, you know, it's really interesting. I my my path has been actually very similar. You know, I I was raised in a fun in a Christian fundamentalist background and didn't make a lot of sense to me.

632

00:39:23,470 --> 00:39:28,610

I'm a very rational kind of person, so I was like, I wanna study engineering. I wanna figure out how this thing works.

633

00:39:29,150 --> 00:39:32,290

And this conversation has been really interesting for me because

634

00:39:32,830 --> 00:39:38,795

I have realized that we are a lot of times as people in the spiritual community are trying to prove to the scientific community

635

00:39:39,255 --> 00:39:41,275

using their language and their methods

636

00:39:41,735 --> 00:39:46,795

to say this is this is scientific, and I hear you saying this goes beyond that.

637

00:39:48,369 --> 00:39:52,070

Yeah. And, actually, one of the things that that I find so valuable about,

638

00:39:52,609 --> 00:40:01,744

Mona Sobhani is do you are you familiar with her book? I'm not. No. I have to check that out. No. I rec I rec I recommend that you read that. So she she is a neuroscientist,

639

00:40:02,444 --> 00:40:04,865

and she was doing her

640

00:40:05,404 --> 00:40:08,145

PhD work or maybe just finished. She was a researcher

641

00:40:08,765 --> 00:40:11,424

trying to do things. But then there were some things that happened

642

00:40:12,365 --> 00:40:12,865

that,

643

00:40:13,690 --> 00:40:15,310

sort of made her question

644

00:40:15,770 --> 00:40:16,590

this material

645

00:40:16,890 --> 00:40:18,830

scientist, but she was very reluctant.

646

00:40:19,210 --> 00:40:24,430

So she was not gonna give in and and give up on that material scientist principle.

647

00:40:24,810 --> 00:40:26,190

So as far as she was concerned,

648

00:40:26,655 --> 00:40:31,315

she was an expert on the brain, what the brains brain can do. Mhmm. Everything

649

00:40:32,575 --> 00:40:37,075

that is claimed to be spiritual by all those other guys, by the woo woo people,

650

00:40:38,655 --> 00:40:40,595

she was gonna prove that that follows.

651

00:40:41,730 --> 00:40:42,390

And then

652

00:40:43,010 --> 00:40:46,950

it it just she started to investigate, and more and more

653

00:40:47,970 --> 00:40:55,110

things came up that just didn't jive. And then she found that there actually is a group of people across the world

654

00:40:55,905 --> 00:40:57,125

who had similar

655

00:40:57,745 --> 00:41:00,965

things, and they started to investigate using scientific methods,

656

00:41:02,065 --> 00:41:06,725

and and establish that these spiritual phenomena are really not explainable

657

00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,579

as as a consequence of of just the normal mechanics of scientific materialism.

658

00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:13,540

Mhmm.

659

00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:15,859

And what happens is actually

660

00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:17,059

the

661

00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,099

methods so since she is a neuroscientist,

662

00:41:20,735 --> 00:41:24,675

she is very familiar with the rigor of what you have to do in order

663

00:41:25,135 --> 00:41:28,195

to establish a science paper or or an observation

664

00:41:28,895 --> 00:41:29,955

about, you know,

665

00:41:30,815 --> 00:41:37,780

the mental behavior or the the activity of the brain associated with some mental behavior or whatever. So she knows how rigorous it is.

666

00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:44,580

What she reports in her book and what she found is that the community of all the people who are trying to prove spiritual phenomena

667

00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:47,140

are using

668

00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:52,805

the same methods, but to a standard that is, like, at least an order of magnitude more rigorous.

669

00:41:53,185 --> 00:42:04,240

Right. Ten times more rigorous. And the reason they have to be so much more rigorous is because whatever they say is always discarded by the scientific the regular scientific community as bogus.

670

00:42:04,780 --> 00:42:11,840

So they have to be extremely careful. The least mistake they make would immediately be called out, and then everything they say will be discarded.

671

00:42:12,220 --> 00:42:15,105

Right. So it turns out that that body of of

672

00:42:15,645 --> 00:42:18,305

results is more rigorous and more

673

00:42:18,845 --> 00:42:19,985

clearly established

674

00:42:20,525 --> 00:42:21,665

than anything else

675

00:42:21,965 --> 00:42:23,905

that we have in the current,

676

00:42:24,765 --> 00:42:25,745

research field.

677

00:42:26,125 --> 00:42:30,920

And and that then eventually sort of convinced her. I was like, yep.

678

00:42:31,460 --> 00:42:37,000

We don't know everything. There is that there is that thing, which is essentially what I was saying.

679

00:42:38,020 --> 00:42:48,045

You have the world. The world is governed by these laws, which we are now understanding quite well, not not a 100%, but quite well. Right. There is this gap between,

680

00:42:50,185 --> 00:42:57,405

that and the spiritual reality of our experience if you pay attention. Now there's a lot of people who go through life

681

00:42:58,740 --> 00:43:06,520

from beginning to end, and they never need to get to any of these spiritual features. They they're never fully aware of it. And to them,

682

00:43:06,820 --> 00:43:08,040

the whole paradigm

683

00:43:08,420 --> 00:43:12,760

of scientific materialism is perfectly fine. You know? It gives them all satisfactory

684

00:43:13,060 --> 00:43:13,560

answers

685

00:43:14,025 --> 00:43:15,005

that they would ever

686

00:43:15,665 --> 00:43:16,165

need.

687

00:43:16,825 --> 00:43:19,065

Yeah. There I guess there are those people.

688

00:43:19,625 --> 00:43:21,724

It's interesting to me, though, that

689

00:43:22,025 --> 00:43:24,765

it seems like at some point that tends to break down,

690

00:43:25,145 --> 00:43:31,850

like, when we have a crisis. Yes. When when we lose somebody or when we when we when we have an illness or something,

691

00:43:32,150 --> 00:43:34,810

that that works until it doesn't, just like religion.

692

00:43:35,190 --> 00:43:44,375

Religion works until it doesn't. You know? A lot of times people will come to me and say, I'm a I'm a Christian. I believe in God. I'm a good person, but my my daughter died. And

693

00:43:44,755 --> 00:43:47,095

how could there be a God? How could he let this happen?

694

00:43:47,555 --> 00:43:48,835

So those things,

695

00:43:49,635 --> 00:44:03,650

yeah, some people do seem to skate through to the end, and they're okay, but it's interesting. Some of them even, you know, toward the very end, they're like, maybe I need to think about this a little bit. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. One thing I do wanna ask you about not to,

696

00:44:05,170 --> 00:44:08,630

try to have science prove religion again, but or spirituality.

697

00:44:09,250 --> 00:44:16,815

But you mentioned at the very beginning, nothing could travel faster than the speed of light, and that's a big limitation if we wanna try to travel to

698

00:44:17,195 --> 00:44:19,295

anywhere because everything's so far away,

699

00:44:20,075 --> 00:44:23,295

but quite an entanglement. Okay. So how does

700

00:44:23,675 --> 00:44:24,735

is there any

701

00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:29,859

thought as to how that works? Because that would have to be faster than the speed of light. Right?

702

00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:35,060

Yeah. You see, this is one of those big disconnects between the way we talk

703

00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:36,020

about,

704

00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:37,700

quantum mechanics

705

00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:39,619

and the way it

706

00:44:40,194 --> 00:44:41,414

is described mathematically.

707

00:44:41,954 --> 00:44:43,414

Mhmm. Okay. And,

708

00:44:44,994 --> 00:44:45,494

so

709

00:44:47,155 --> 00:44:48,615

there is some fine print

710

00:44:48,994 --> 00:44:50,295

to quantum entanglement

711

00:44:51,155 --> 00:44:52,615

that all the physicists

712

00:44:53,635 --> 00:44:54,375

know about

713

00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,020

sort of, and they are aware of it. Mhmm.

714

00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,220

But that in the popular press

715

00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:03,940

is not talked about

716

00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:05,859

or is not made clear.

717

00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,260

They sort of leave off the fine print

718

00:45:08,865 --> 00:45:10,965

or the footnote that explains this

719

00:45:11,425 --> 00:45:12,965

because it's just too complicated.

720

00:45:13,505 --> 00:45:14,005

Mhmm.

721

00:45:14,465 --> 00:45:16,005

So quantum entanglement

722

00:45:16,545 --> 00:45:19,045

means that if you do certain things

723

00:45:19,585 --> 00:45:22,245

a certain way, you will see correlations

724

00:45:22,785 --> 00:45:24,245

between certain activities.

725

00:45:26,810 --> 00:45:27,710

That immediately

726

00:45:28,170 --> 00:45:38,750

and Einstein, when it when it was first brought to his attention, he said that is called spooky action at a distance. Right. And because he was fully aware of the special theory of relativity since he invented it,

727

00:45:39,210 --> 00:45:39,950

he said,

728

00:45:40,375 --> 00:45:42,555

what is that how how can that,

729

00:45:43,655 --> 00:45:44,795

communication happen?

730

00:45:45,255 --> 00:45:48,555

So then the physics community immediately started to investigate,

731

00:45:50,215 --> 00:45:54,075

well, is there anything communicated between these two things?

732

00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:56,440

So if if you measure

733

00:45:57,059 --> 00:46:02,119

so the the way quantum entanglement work just as a quick summary Mhmm. Is you you basically

734

00:46:03,140 --> 00:46:03,640

create,

735

00:46:04,339 --> 00:46:06,599

a quantum mechanical system like,

736

00:46:07,140 --> 00:46:09,960

you have an atom and it ejects 2 photons.

737

00:46:10,505 --> 00:46:15,565

One goes one way and one goes the other way. And because they were created at this initial point,

738

00:46:16,105 --> 00:46:22,365

there is a correlation between them. Like, one has spin up and the other one or one has polarization up and the other one has polarization,

739

00:46:23,225 --> 00:46:23,725

orthogonal

740

00:46:24,025 --> 00:46:25,245

to it. Mhmm.

741

00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:27,260

But you don't know

742

00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:29,340

which polar which direction

743

00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:31,820

polar you just know that the 2 of them

744

00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,660

have orthogonal polarizations, but you don't know whether it's, like,

745

00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,700

up in the lab, in my lab, or whether it's up in your lab. We don't know that.

746

00:46:41,475 --> 00:46:47,735

So then these photons travel at the speed of light, and they could travel very far. We've done experiments where they

747

00:46:48,035 --> 00:46:55,095

they travel tens of kilometers. And even in space, you can do hundreds of kilometers. You can have communication like that between satellites.

748

00:46:56,580 --> 00:47:01,460

And so then the the mystery of of entanglement is that if I

749

00:47:02,420 --> 00:47:06,040

if if if I receive the photon in one satellite

750

00:47:07,380 --> 00:47:09,960

and I find out that the polarization

751

00:47:11,535 --> 00:47:12,674

since it it wasn't

752

00:47:12,974 --> 00:47:16,755

clear what it was before it at it hit the satellite,

753

00:47:17,214 --> 00:47:24,275

but now it's in the satellite, it's up. Like, it's pointing towards the sun, say Mhmm. But vertical up.

754

00:47:26,250 --> 00:47:29,710

Then we know that if I go and measure

755

00:47:30,010 --> 00:47:34,590

the photon in the other satellite that is, like, a 100 miles on the other side,

756

00:47:35,770 --> 00:47:41,150

I will find orthogonal. So that means it's not going to point to the sun, but it's going to point to a direction

757

00:47:41,885 --> 00:47:43,185

to the sun. Mhmm.

758

00:47:43,805 --> 00:47:44,545

And so

759

00:47:46,445 --> 00:47:47,565

people have this

760

00:47:47,885 --> 00:47:50,464

so once I make this measurement, it instantly

761

00:47:51,964 --> 00:47:58,640

is now known on the other and then you can do the measurement on the satellite and you find, yeah, indeed. It's like that. Mhmm.

762

00:47:59,420 --> 00:48:04,560

So then people have the question, well, is the the it must be that there's some information being sent

763

00:48:04,860 --> 00:48:05,600

that way.

764

00:48:06,460 --> 00:48:08,160

And if there's that information

765

00:48:08,805 --> 00:48:13,385

being sent to determine the outcome of that other experiment in the other satellite,

766

00:48:14,085 --> 00:48:16,744

well, then maybe we can use that to send some messages.

767

00:48:17,925 --> 00:48:19,625

Well, now the mat the physicists

768

00:48:20,005 --> 00:48:22,984

figured out all the math and they could prove

769

00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:24,260

that you cannot

770

00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:26,980

use this mechanism to send information.

771

00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:28,980

And that is never

772

00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:35,860

explained in the popular press. They basically say, oh, we measure it here, and then we immediately know that it happens on the other side.

773

00:48:36,865 --> 00:48:39,765

But we can prove that it cannot

774

00:48:41,025 --> 00:48:41,605

be made

775

00:48:42,225 --> 00:48:49,365

that cannot that experiment cannot be made, and you cannot modify it or make it a more elaborate or make it more sophisticated

776

00:48:50,079 --> 00:48:52,819

to actually violate the principle of

777

00:48:53,200 --> 00:49:01,299

special relativity that nothing can travel faster than light and that you can use it to send communication. You cannot do that. We know that. Interesting. Okay.

778

00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:06,645

But the way we talk about it, we talk about it as if there is something being sent.

779

00:49:07,425 --> 00:49:07,925

Yeah.

780

00:49:08,225 --> 00:49:14,245

And that and that produces then in normal people who read this, they say, oh, why can't I send this

781

00:49:14,625 --> 00:49:15,365

as a signal?

782

00:49:15,665 --> 00:49:22,820

This it is a signal because people talk about it as a signal. And and so then they make all kinds of conclusions on their own, which

783

00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:24,260

by that footnote

784

00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:26,180

in all the scientific,

785

00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:32,815

papers or in the education of the physicists is like, no, we've proven that you can't send any. So don't even go there.

786

00:49:33,115 --> 00:49:38,095

But then the question naturally asked, well, if it can't be done, how does it how does it work?

787

00:49:38,474 --> 00:49:42,575

And that's where Bohr's dogma comes in. It's like, well, there are some questions

788

00:49:43,035 --> 00:49:44,255

you cannot ask

789

00:49:45,110 --> 00:49:48,650

or you can ask them, but there's no answer. You're not allowed to.

790

00:49:49,190 --> 00:49:54,170

And that is and there are a significant number of physicists that that sort of

791

00:49:55,270 --> 00:50:03,635

object to that. In some ways, they say, well, that's really a a outwardly and unscientific situation to sort of say, hey. There are some questions you can't ask. And so

792

00:50:03,935 --> 00:50:06,835

that's not scientific. You know? There's something missing.

793

00:50:07,295 --> 00:50:08,195

Right. Right.

794

00:50:09,375 --> 00:50:10,915

So when it comes to

795

00:50:12,290 --> 00:50:13,350

the the materialistic

796

00:50:13,890 --> 00:50:16,390

paradigm that we that we live in and you

797

00:50:16,850 --> 00:50:18,310

being such a

798

00:50:18,770 --> 00:50:24,790

student of of physics and fit fit physical and the way things work, also but also being a spiritual person,

799

00:50:25,895 --> 00:50:29,035

how is your spirituality received in your community?

800

00:50:32,535 --> 00:50:33,035

Well,

801

00:50:34,455 --> 00:50:35,275

most physicists

802

00:50:36,214 --> 00:50:36,714

have

803

00:50:37,255 --> 00:50:38,234

have a spiritual

804

00:50:38,775 --> 00:50:39,275

awareness,

805

00:50:40,140 --> 00:50:41,540

but we make it very

806

00:50:42,299 --> 00:50:47,039

and many of them like Einstein, they have strong opinions about this because they know

807

00:50:47,500 --> 00:50:49,119

because they practice physics

808

00:50:50,059 --> 00:50:51,915

every day. They sort of know

809

00:50:52,475 --> 00:50:56,895

that you cannot get all the answers that way. But it's part of the

810

00:50:57,275 --> 00:50:57,775

scientific

811

00:50:58,715 --> 00:50:59,215

paradigm

812

00:51:00,395 --> 00:51:01,935

and being a good scientist

813

00:51:02,475 --> 00:51:03,455

that you cannot

814

00:51:04,170 --> 00:51:08,349

let yourself be guided by these external things. They are considered as external.

815

00:51:08,730 --> 00:51:12,910

Mhmm. And and they're not part of it. Sort of the same thing as as saying,

816

00:51:14,650 --> 00:51:18,670

you're working as an engineer in a factory. You're building cars.

817

00:51:19,785 --> 00:51:21,484

Well, your emotional

818

00:51:22,345 --> 00:51:27,565

life and your relationship with your family and your kids or whatever should not influence

819

00:51:27,865 --> 00:51:28,845

your job

820

00:51:29,145 --> 00:51:30,845

at the factory and and

821

00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:40,579

modify in any way the way you do your job making these cars and making sure that they are safe and and sound and whatever. You know? So they

822

00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:42,339

they keep that in a separate

823

00:51:43,119 --> 00:51:44,819

part. You know? Obviously,

824

00:51:45,714 --> 00:51:51,974

if something happens at their home and they need to take them, they ask for sick leave, and they don't come up to work. Right.

825

00:51:52,355 --> 00:51:55,494

But that is that's the way you should think of it. So physicists,

826

00:51:56,035 --> 00:52:05,970

they all have opinions. There are some that are total materialists, and they they say, I don't believe in any God, but it doesn't guide the way they do their steps. They cannot,

827

00:52:06,750 --> 00:52:08,770

as part of a scientific publication,

828

00:52:09,150 --> 00:52:09,650

say,

829

00:52:10,350 --> 00:52:10,850

oh,

830

00:52:11,175 --> 00:52:11,675

we,

831

00:52:12,855 --> 00:52:14,555

are now drawing this conclusion

832

00:52:15,175 --> 00:52:16,555

because there's no god.

833

00:52:16,935 --> 00:52:20,715

Now there are some papers where you can have a discussion

834

00:52:21,015 --> 00:52:21,515

on

835

00:52:22,135 --> 00:52:26,760

the connection between science and and and spirituality in some philosophical

836

00:52:27,460 --> 00:52:28,440

journals, professional

837

00:52:28,740 --> 00:52:34,440

philosophical journals. But in general, in the in the physics and chemistry, the pure science journals,

838

00:52:34,900 --> 00:52:35,400

that's

839

00:52:35,780 --> 00:52:36,599

not done.

840

00:52:37,365 --> 00:52:42,265

Yeah. And I I I it's interesting to to hear you say that because the perception

841

00:52:42,565 --> 00:52:47,385

from from me and a lot of people is that most of the scientific community are materialists,

842

00:52:47,845 --> 00:52:53,670

that they are fundamentally like and I've I've had conversation with people where they'll say literally, well, that's impossible.

843

00:52:55,090 --> 00:52:55,590

Mediumship

844

00:52:56,050 --> 00:52:56,790

is impossible.

845

00:52:57,090 --> 00:52:58,230

Near death experiences,

846

00:52:58,610 --> 00:52:59,750

they don't happen.

847

00:53:00,770 --> 00:53:05,510

All these things that that you were saying, like, I I guess that maybe that Mona Sabani was looking at

848

00:53:06,065 --> 00:53:11,285

that that then not only will I say, well, we don't study that. That's outside of our field of expertise.

849

00:53:11,665 --> 00:53:13,525

They'll say it's not it's not possible.

850

00:53:14,465 --> 00:53:20,165

So you haven't run into to that, or have you? Yeah. Yeah. But but but you see, this is

851

00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:24,660

the the people who are advocating for scientific materialism

852

00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:33,645

are the ones who really want to make that case. They're the ones that are most vocal, and they're the ones that you therefore hear about.

853

00:53:34,525 --> 00:53:37,505

There's a whole group of other people who basically say,

854

00:53:38,045 --> 00:53:48,065

you know, I have my doubts. I don't but it doesn't matter because it doesn't influence the way I do physics. I can build my career. I have these thoughts. I keep these thoughts to myself. I'm not gonna

855

00:53:48,410 --> 00:53:51,150

talk about it and say I have this religious belief,

856

00:53:52,010 --> 00:53:52,970

and it colors

857

00:53:53,370 --> 00:54:09,475

no. No. People like Einstein made some comments about that. There are some others that made some comments about it. But the majority of the people are either quiet about it, and then they have their own opinion and you don't know it. Mhmm. Or they're the ones that have an axe to grind, and they wanna really prove that scientific materialism

858

00:54:09,775 --> 00:54:10,435

is it,

859

00:54:10,895 --> 00:54:19,230

and and they use that. Yeah. Well, I would say and this is coming from a layperson because those guys that you talked about, Bohr Bohr, Heisenberg,

860

00:54:19,609 --> 00:54:20,109

Einstein,

861

00:54:20,569 --> 00:54:27,710

all the guys up in up until that point, I think a lot of people were like, they were spiritual people, you know, maybe not religious, but spiritual.

862

00:54:28,250 --> 00:54:32,745

And they said, we're gonna study the physical and but we're not gonna bring try to bring God into the lab.

863

00:54:33,205 --> 00:54:42,105

There seemed to be a break at around that time where science said, no. It is they they they don't realize it's a philosophy. They became materialists,

864

00:54:42,940 --> 00:54:46,540

and they're like, there is no spirituality. There is nothing beyond.

865

00:54:47,260 --> 00:54:55,280

And maybe those are just the vocal ones, but that's that's what's coming No. No. Actually and and Bohr Bohr was definitely like that because Bohr made some statements

866

00:54:55,980 --> 00:54:57,280

that he believed

867

00:54:58,425 --> 00:55:00,765

that quantum mechanics was going to explain

868

00:55:01,305 --> 00:55:02,765

all of eastern mysticism.

869

00:55:03,145 --> 00:55:05,085

He made that claim in 1926

870

00:55:06,025 --> 00:55:08,445

or whatever he Mhmm. Around that time,

871

00:55:08,905 --> 00:55:10,505

he made that claim and

872

00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:12,500

but then because

873

00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:13,860

quantum mechanics,

874

00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:18,500

as part of his

875

00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:20,660

final conclusion,

876

00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,580

left this there are some questions that are not

877

00:55:25,365 --> 00:55:27,145

askable or not answerable.

878

00:55:27,445 --> 00:55:27,945

Mhmm.

879

00:55:28,645 --> 00:55:29,545

That basically

880

00:55:30,645 --> 00:55:31,145

put,

881

00:55:32,405 --> 00:55:36,105

a very strong damper in the scientific community. So if you

882

00:55:36,965 --> 00:55:38,265

would, as a scientist,

883

00:55:38,725 --> 00:55:40,265

question that this

884

00:55:40,619 --> 00:55:42,400

way we talk about quantum mechanics

885

00:55:43,259 --> 00:55:48,799

and the way we do the mathematics are not fully aligned. If you try to question that, if you wanted to do some investigation

886

00:55:49,099 --> 00:55:49,759

on that,

887

00:55:50,460 --> 00:56:00,015

people would consider you as a heretic because you were going against Bohr. And so people who were trying to work on a PhD thesis or publish some papers,

888

00:56:00,875 --> 00:56:04,895

they were essentially told, well, if you wanna have a career, if you wanna get tenure,

889

00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:06,740

just stick to these

890

00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,620

material scientific materialist activities

891

00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:13,540

Mhmm. And don't talk about any of that other or connection to spirituality

892

00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:14,660

or whatever.

893

00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,700

And that kept on going until

894

00:56:18,535 --> 00:56:20,395

the 19 sixties, where in 1965

895

00:56:26,135 --> 00:56:27,195

what's his name?

896

00:56:31,359 --> 00:56:33,780

I'm drawing a a senior moment.

897

00:56:34,240 --> 00:56:37,220

He was he worked at CERN, and he had the

898

00:56:43,615 --> 00:56:49,875

Let me see. Well, anyway so so so he he he he worked at CERN. He was a particle physicist.

899

00:56:50,175 --> 00:56:55,875

Okay. And as his hobby, he worked on the foundations of quantum mechanics. And then he basically,

900

00:56:57,135 --> 00:57:03,420

established, which is now known as a as a theorem, and I, you know, forgot forgot to name that. Mhmm.

901

00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:04,460

And

902

00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:05,740

that's when

903

00:57:06,359 --> 00:57:08,940

people started to think about this, and there was a graduate

904

00:57:09,319 --> 00:57:09,819

student

905

00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:11,020

aspect

906

00:57:11,985 --> 00:57:12,485

working,

907

00:57:13,585 --> 00:57:14,085

he

908

00:57:14,705 --> 00:57:20,165

wanted to test that thing. And his professor allowed him to to do this,

909

00:57:20,865 --> 00:57:22,245

and they established

910

00:57:22,625 --> 00:57:25,770

entanglement for which they gave the Nobel Prize 2 years ago,

911

00:57:26,730 --> 00:57:33,230

because people and that was for the first time that, it became a little bit more legitimate to do this kind of thing because

912

00:57:34,730 --> 00:57:35,950

he asked the question

913

00:57:36,970 --> 00:57:37,470

and

914

00:57:38,265 --> 00:57:44,525

connected it to an experiment that could actually be carried out, and that made it accessible and not just speculation.

915

00:57:44,904 --> 00:57:47,164

When it As long as people were just speculating

916

00:57:48,025 --> 00:57:50,365

and talking about, we need to investigate

917

00:57:50,810 --> 00:58:01,390

the clarity of how quantum mechanics is formulated and why there are these strange paradoxes. We wanna understand them. That was all taboo for many, many years. Right.

918

00:58:02,410 --> 00:58:03,550

Now it is still

919

00:58:04,244 --> 00:58:06,025

considered a little bit sidetracked,

920

00:58:06,325 --> 00:58:10,904

but at least it's allowed and it's considered legitimate, and somebody got an and the group got the,

921

00:58:11,365 --> 00:58:14,664

Nobel Prize for it. So so so there is a

922

00:58:15,765 --> 00:58:17,545

what what what you're saying is true.

923

00:58:18,005 --> 00:58:19,785

There there there definitely is

924

00:58:20,220 --> 00:58:24,240

this feeling that, yeah, if you wanna have a good scientific career,

925

00:58:24,619 --> 00:58:35,680

don't dabble in that connection between spirituality and physics. Well, I I I I work with doctor Gary Schwartz, who you may know from, University of Arizona, and he's been working on consciousness

926

00:58:36,805 --> 00:58:37,385

for decades.

927

00:58:37,765 --> 00:58:57,920

And, you know, and it's interesting to see how he gets blackballed in certain places because just because of the work that he's doing. Even though he's bringing extreme scientific rigor to it, like you said, you've gotta you've gotta do it 10 times better. You've gotta repeat the experiments over and over again, and that and what a lot of people don't understand, lay people, is that

928

00:58:58,220 --> 00:59:00,160

some of these things have been proven, like,

929

00:59:00,460 --> 00:59:07,395

you know, present presentience where they would do an experiment where people will have a feeling before they have a, they see something

930

00:59:08,035 --> 00:59:09,255

or, you know, psychokinesis

931

00:59:09,795 --> 00:59:12,775

or remote viewing. I mean, these things have been proven

932

00:59:13,075 --> 00:59:13,575

scientifically

933

00:59:14,355 --> 00:59:30,200

to the point where it's, as you said, more than some things that we accept is generally accepted, but they're still considered woo woo. Yeah. Yeah. So so the guy that I was trying to remember the name is John Bell. John Bell. Yes. Okay. I've heard the name. Yeah. So he is the he is the one who established his Bell inequalities,

934

00:59:31,300 --> 00:59:35,675

which then allowed somebody to make an experiment to actually verify

935

00:59:35,975 --> 00:59:38,235

what he was what people were asking.

936

00:59:38,615 --> 00:59:39,115

Mhmm.

937

00:59:39,415 --> 00:59:44,475

And and then that led to this whole notion of entanglement and the proof that entanglement exists.

938

00:59:45,255 --> 00:59:54,180

But still, the way we talk about entanglement has not been clarified. But now at least you can do an experiment, and you can say, yep. It works. And and it's currently being used

939

00:59:54,880 --> 01:00:03,540

for quantum cryptography and and all kinds of things. So so it it really works. Okay. But but we don't understand it, and there's no good way to explain it.

940

01:00:04,075 --> 01:00:04,575

And

941

01:00:05,515 --> 01:00:07,215

you can't use it for communication.

942

01:00:07,515 --> 01:00:17,535

But you can use it for other things. Well, that's interesting. So just to go down the rabbit hole a little bit more because I don't I'm gonna make sure I understand it. You can't use it for communication, but you said you can use it for quantum cryptography?

943

01:00:18,315 --> 01:00:19,375

Yes. Okay.

944

01:00:20,310 --> 01:00:21,050

So, basically,

945

01:00:21,670 --> 01:00:24,330

the way you can use it is you can

946

01:00:24,950 --> 01:00:27,450

communicate because of that correlation.

947

01:00:27,910 --> 01:00:29,290

Mhmm. You can communicate

948

01:00:30,070 --> 01:00:31,530

a a key

949

01:00:32,685 --> 01:00:33,505

to another,

950

01:00:35,005 --> 01:00:35,505

thing

951

01:00:35,885 --> 01:00:42,945

and verify whether you accept it or not. Okay. So you have to use a classical signal to send the information

952

01:00:43,965 --> 01:00:46,145

to to the other person,

953

01:00:46,539 --> 01:00:49,039

and then you use this entanglement thing

954

01:00:49,579 --> 01:00:50,319

to establish

955

01:00:50,779 --> 01:00:51,519

the key

956

01:00:52,059 --> 01:00:53,279

for decryption.

957

01:00:53,819 --> 01:00:57,920

Okay. Wow. But but, actually, you don't send the information using entanglement.

958

01:00:58,380 --> 01:01:02,160

The information has to be sent separately on a separate channel.

959

01:01:02,484 --> 01:01:07,785

Okay. Wow. Like over the Internet or something. Yeah. Interesting. Wow. Okay. That's fascinating.

960

01:01:08,645 --> 01:01:18,025

Well, we're coming to the end of our time. I really appreciate you you having this conversation today. It's been, it's been fascinating. So is there anything you'd like to say as we wrap up?

961

01:01:19,420 --> 01:01:32,845

No. I'm I'm very grateful for you to have this conversation with me. I thought it was was great fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Eric, good to meet you. Enjoy the rest of your day, and, I'll see you later. Yes. You

962

01:01:33,145 --> 01:01:34,365

too. Have a great day.