Transforming Pet Loss Into A Path For Growth

Introduction:
In this profound episode of Grief 2 Growth, Brian Smith engages in a heartwarming conversation with Erica Messer, whose journey through the loss of her beloved cat Wolfgang led to the creation of "Wolfie's Wish" - a sanctuary for those mourning the loss of their furry friends. Through her story, Erica sheds light on the depth of pet loss grief and how it can propel us toward unexpected avenues of healing and connection.

What You'll Learn:

• The emotional impact and validity of grieving for a pet.
• How Erica channeled her grief into creating an award-winning venture providing solace to others experiencing pet loss.
• The innovative ways Erica uses her musical talents to aid in the healing process.
• Strategies for navigating the journey of grief and transforming pain into purpose.

Featured Guest:
Erica Messer - Founder of Wolfie's Wish, harpist, and advocate for pet loss support. Erica's passion and creativity have blossomed into a comprehensive platform offering resources, support, and a community for those grieving the loss of their pets.

Resources Mentioned:

• Wolfie's Wish: Explore a wide range of resources and support for pet loss at wolfieswish.com
• Grief 2 Growth Community: Join the conversation and connect with others at grief2growth.com/community

Connect with Our Guest:

• Website: wolfieswish.com
• Instagram: @wolfieswish
• Facebook Support Group: Wolfie's Wish Pet Loss Support

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https://grief2growth.com/community

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Transcript

Brian Smith: 0:55

Hey everybody this is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth and today I've got with me a special guest. Her name is Erica Messer. And before we get started want to introduce myself to people who might be your first time here, we explore the multi dimensional nature of grief and the many ways that we can, we can find growth through pain. For those tuning in for the first time, I wanted to let you know that this podcast is a haven for Heart to Heart conversations about the journey through loss, about the hope that persists beyond it and the understanding that love never dies. So as I said, I've got with me today Erica Messer, and Erica after the sudden passing of her Charice cat Wolfgang or Wolfie her sorrow led her on an innovative path. She channeled her grief into creating pet loss greeting cards and offering that resonated with countless people earning the best new product award at the prestigious SuperZoo trade show. This endeavor which began as wolfies wish has since blossomed into a beacon of comfort for many get navigating the loss of their furry companions. But her passion, her talents and her passions exceed her entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial spirit. She's also a virtuoso of the harp. She captivates audience with her renditions of pop and rock performed on an instrument that she's played since she was a child. Her musical journey took significant turn of Vienna, that added a layer of enchantment to her prowess. Erica now lives in Germany with her husband and her three cats. And that's where she's joining us from today. So with that, I want to welcome two groups for growth. Erica Messer

Erica Messer: 2:28

Hi, Brian, thank you. What a nice introduction. I appreciate that.

Brian Smith: 2:32

Yeah, it's great to meet you. I want to talk about your you know, I want you to talk about Wolfie and how you inspired your work. Before we even start, I want to let people know that pet loss is a really real thing, that people grieve their pets. I've had people come to me and talk about you know, wanting to talk about pet loss. So I appreciate the work that you're doing. Because often it gets overlooked. But tell us about Wolfie and how you got started doing this. Thank you. Um, Wolfgang was a crazy little cat that I adopted during the pandemic. I hate to use the word replacement, but he was a replacement pet for one that died before we moved to Germany.

Erica Messer: 3:11

And I think combined with the fact that you know, I was home 24/7 in a foreign country. And you know, I had and I also nursed this cat he had I herpes as a kitten was unwanted. And just those factors, I think really developed a strong bond between him and I. And he died very tragically. And suddenly, and I was really left devastated and really shocked at the level of grief and trauma I was facing. I had never experienced anything like that before. And you know, I asked myself several times, like, Am I crazy. Um, and so that's really like, the relationship that I had with him. It was pretty special. As, as I've learned that many people have with their pets, you know, they become like, there's, you're lucky if you find one that you can call your soul animal. And I totally believe that's what he was. And I tell people, you know, he broke my heart enough for me to want to turn my grief into something to help others. And part of that is I couldn't really find resources for pet loss very easily. You know, here I am with this story in my head like it's just a pet, because that's what I've always heard. You know, why? What's wrong with me? Am I broken? So I had to go through a lot of self exploration to come to find out everybody feels this way when they lose a soul animal. And it's just not talked about and it's just not acknowledged. Yeah, I completely agree with you that you mentioned he was a replacement Canada, you kind of hesitate to use that word. But so you have you had have you lost pets before? Yeah, before, one month before my husband and I moved here. One of our cats got hit by a car. And he was nine months old. So he was kind of like, oh, we raised this kitten, and he's gone. And we're devastated. And to be to just to qualify, he was more of like my husband's cat. So we both aggrieved but my, my grief period was a lot shorter than him and was like very cute for a couple of days. And then it just kind of went to acceptance. So it was a very different experience. And we've gone was going to be, you know, we brought we brought one cat with us and we wanted him to have a companion and for my husband and I to each kind of have our own snuggle buddy. Yeah. So yeah, that brings up another important thing I think that well, losses is different. Every loss is different, right? So we lose some people in our life that we feel a different way about and I guess it's similar when we when we lose a pet you mentioned you feel like it Wolfgang was a soul animal for you. Yeah. What does that mean to you? I mean, sue me as it was just you know, I think he was more than a cat. And I know that sounds a little All out there to say, but it's just how I felt. And it was something that I shared with I actually got grief support, I found a counselor to help me work through some of this trauma and confusion. And symptoms I was having. And and she's like, Yeah, he was special to you. A lot of people feel that way. And PS your normal, you know, I was really ready for her to tell me I needed to go somewhere, or like, get some kind of special treatment or, you know, enroll in like a PTSD program or something. You know, come to find out. Oh, and people, when people lose something they care about or someone they care about. It can be very devastating and debilitating. Yeah. How did your How did your grief present for Wolfgang, what were what were the things you were going through? Oh, gosh, I think the most alarming thing was, you know, having these thoughts of like, I don't want to be here. I don't want to die. But I don't want to be here. I don't want to be in this situation. How do I, I wanted to just like, blacked out in a sense, which is obviously something I can't do. And I'm clean and sober for 15 years. So you know, I really had to just sit with how to get through this. Um, I would leave like the faucet running, I would leave the stove on the fridge door, open the keys in the door. So I knew. And that was alarming because I knew oh my gosh, I'm aware that I'm grieving. But there's, I'm out of control. And that was very scary to think, Whoa, am I going to be okay, what's going on?

Brian Smith: 7:31

Well, I'm glad that you said that. I appreciate you being so, so vulnerable here. Because when people go through grief, it's a very common thing that we go through that feeling I don't want to be here anymore. It's not necessarily feeling of suicide, as you said, it's not like I'm going to take my life but it's just like, I want the pain to stop. You know, the forgetfulness, the grief fog, I call it the brain fog that we go through. We just can't the inability to concentrate. And, you know, we say to people, okay, it's okay to go through that with a person. But going through that with an animal, there's something wrong with that. But in a sense, our animals are even closer to us than people are in many cases. Well, thank you for acknowledging that. I think it's, it's you had, you kind of have to have a pet to understand that. But

Erica Messer: 8:20

what I found Ryan is when when I talk to people, and I tell them what I do, you know, most often they say, Well, tell me more, what is that? And then some of them will come in and combine and say, you know, I grieve the loss of my dog more than my dad, you know, I don't understand. And that's okay. It's okay, you know, you are with your dog 24/7. You never argued your dog never told you to lose weight, or, you know, save more money, or just, they were just your companion. You know, they give us unconditional love. And you know, me I see my family four or five times a year. It doesn't mean I don't love them. It's just different. And so I hope to normalize pet loss grief and and provide these kinds of explanations on why it can be so devastating, especially for you know, if they get a sudden illness or there's an accident. No one's really prepared for that. Right? Yeah. And, again, this is something that I've kind of figured out after going through and talking to people who have lost pets, and I've had lost a couple

Brian Smith: 9:24

that you said, your animal never argues with you. Right? They don't, they don't, they don't give you advice. They don't criticize you, they love you. It's about as close to unconditional love as you can get, besides, you know, maybe a child, but even the children grew up and they start to argue with you. And your pets never grew up. They're always they're always there. They're always there for you.

Erica Messer: 9:44

Yeah, and it's also interesting that, you know, we we often see our pets their whole lifespan, you know, we get them as kittens or puppies or young, whatever they are. And then we have to say goodbye. And we don't really have that experience with humans or really any other relationships. So that's another reason why it's so different and so complex. And yet, you know, in my lifetime, people had dogs for protection, or just they kind of kept them outside. And, you know, yeah, they were fun. But our relationship with animals has changed so much in the past just 40 years. You know, cats were kept to eat mice mean historically, right? And now, now we invented litter to bring them inside. People are throwing birthday parties for their dogs, which is beautiful and so fun. You know, you just look on Instagram, and it's full of pet videos like it's a thing. So our relationship has changed and it's really time to stop that conversation or, you know, judgment of a wish just a pet get another one get over it. You would never say that to someone who has lost a family member. So we really have to treat the treated

Brian Smith: 10:55

Conversation differently, but also have resources and support accessible to people. Yeah, that's a really interesting point you just made about how things have changed because my wife is from Kentucky. And her father is a hunter was a was a hunter. And so they always had outside dogs. You know, I think her parents when they were before they had kids that had an inside dog, but that was that you know what they call outside dogs and they kept them in a pen. And dogs were considered Did you see kind of a working thing ever you ever might want mom or her brother would not let them in the house. Because every once awhile you might want a dog in the house. But it wasn't a thing. But now our you know, our first before we had children, we had a pet. We had her for three years before our daughter was born. And we we took her with us when we traveled we bought her Christmas presents, you know, it was like our it was like a first child. Awesome. Yeah, yeah, things have really changed. You know, we had I always had dogs growing up, they stayed outside. And when it was really freezing in North Florida, you know, like one day a year in the garage, but they never slept with us, they never came in and sat at the dinner table or under their dinner table or really anywhere near us. But we loved them. They were just like our outside companions. Right? Um, so it's really interesting seeing those changes firsthand. And just my lifetime and you know, it's it's actually exciting to see what's next. Right? If if pets are finally being accepted as members of the family.

Erica Messer: 13:15

It's kind of fun. There's dog hotels and you know, vacations themed around bringing your pet with you. You know, you can now bring them on the airplane like right next to you under your feet. It's It's really neat. And animals give us so much like the human animal bond is so beautiful. And it really doesn't matter the species because Brian I asked myself, well, do people grieve the same way for like a rabbit? Or horse or like, is it just dogs and cats? And so as I did my research and just past people and had conversations, I found that yeah, people grieve the loss of a frog, the turtle and cry about it. And it's nothing to be ashamed about.

Brian Smith: 14:00

Yeah, well, that's another good point. Because you know, I think a soul I think animals have souls, animals are souls. And a soul is a soul. We have that connection. My my daughter, Shana. She wanted to get a gecko when she was younger. And so we you know, we got a gecko, and then you know, and we everybody else was like, okay, it doesn't love you. You can't really hug it. It doesn't like being held. You just feed the mealworms every once in a while. But there's still that that connection that you had with that guy going when the gecko died, you know, she grieves.

Erica Messer: 14:34

Yeah. Isn't it interesting that, you know, as, as a kid in school, like we had, and I kind of wanna and some hermit crabs. And I think it's just so fascinating that we can be so close to nature, in a in a more personal way, rather than just, you know, being at the zoo, or, you know, observing nature. It's like, with pets, you can you can just experience this other part of life, which is really beautiful. And special. Yeah. So tell me about your, your grieving cards, and what do you what do you hope to accomplish with them? Yeah, so the grieving cards are really just daily practices that I came up with to help myself just cope. You know, I needed something really simple, like one day at a time. And there's so many books available. And I think that's wonderful. But with the grief fog that I had, or the brain fog, and you know, I was kind of debilitating. These symptoms that I had, I couldn't I knew I couldn't read. So I would share with my mom every day. Hey, I did this thing. I wrote a love letter to Wolfgang, I laughed and cried. And it feels so good to have that written down and put away that lest I forget some of his quirks. I could go and read it. And it was like, ah, it just felt like this big exhale. So I was sharing with her these things. And she said, I think you should make the thing that you couldn't find, which was a deck of affirmation cards, like daily practices. You know, and I tell this story a lot. I said, Mom, I don't know how to do that. And I don't want to do that I'm grieving. I can't even focus. But she just kind of kept hearing what I was doing and said I these are really great ideas that you should share. So she helped me produce this first deck of 30 cards and we were like, Okay, what do we do with these? We need to get these out in the world. You know, I don't have an MBA, I don't have a business background. So we took them to a trade show like a big giant pet trade show called Super zoo and thought, well, this is a great this is a great test lab to see. You know if this is the worst idea ever, and then, you know, we I still can't believe we want to bust up Product award as a new exhibitor, and I cried under my booth just like that, oh gosh, then this isn't just for me, you know, this is cool. And that kind of kept me keep going. And now we've got so many grief support resources. And now we have anticipatory grief cards. So when your animal is sick or a senior, you can start working on your grief before it happened before the pet passes, kind of taking some precautionary things to get yourself ready for that, for that big loss, and we've gotten grief support that's free with counselors, once a month. Um, you know, if you just go to wolfies, wish.com resources, you can see because I'll just list them out. There's, there's like 20 things now

Brian Smith: 17:31

started with those cards, which I still think are the best thing that we've got. But not everybody wants to read something, not everybody wants something tangible. They might just want to talk or they want to book reference, or they want to find a private counselor. So if I try to be the person to connect people to people, or what they want the solutions that they need are. I think the cards are a great idea. Because as you said, there is that grief fog, people, typically we can't concentrate. So we can do things a little bit at a time. And it gives you a sense of direction. I guess you just you, I guess you'd pull a card every day and do an activity. Yeah, it's because people want to know, like, Okay, well, how do I how do I navigate this? And then again, the biggest thing I think is normalizing it because people do sometimes maybe feel like they're crazy. It's It's funny, I was thinking we were getting ready to do this interview with you. And I just smile, I think about this guy filled out an intake form to work with me. And he said he lost his best friend. So I'm like, Okay, so we're having an introductory call he mentioned, he said, Well, my cat died. And I thought, oh, man, this poor guy, he lost his best friend, and he lost his cat. And as we continue to talk, finally, I realized he was talking about his cat was his best friend. But I guess when he filled out the form, he's like, he wondered if I would take him seriously, if he said that he had lost his cat. But I've had clients who have lost cats, clients who have lost dogs, and they go through the exact same grieving process, you go through me and lose a person, like you said that that grief fog, the not wanting to be here. Sometimes there's a disconnection with the spouse, because the spouse might grieve differently. And if like, they're not grieving at all.

Erica Messer: 19:23

There's big decisions, too, I get another animal because people will say, well just get another dog. And that really offends some people when you say, you know, get a replacement animal. Yeah, it does really offend people. And isn't that interesting, I hope that I can live in a world where people don't have to pretend that they lost a human in order to get the help that they need, or even the time off of work that they need, or whatever that is. But I can I totally see that that mentality right now. And I think it's, I think it's the people that don't have pets, they're telling us how we can grieve and what's allowed and not allowed, when really majority of the population has a pet. And it's really time for us to step up to the plate and acknowledge this loss and defend ourselves in a sense, to say, you know, this is valid, and support and I need, you know, you may not understand, and that's okay. But I've got to find a way to get through this and take care of myself.

Brian Smith: 20:20

Yeah, it's you know, I was thinking recently, I've had, you know, friends who have lost pets, because that's the thing about pets, you know, most of our pets were going out live.

Erica Messer: 20:30

But it's interesting that humans do that we bring in pets, we know, pretty much you're gonna go. But then I'm like, Okay, do I send them a card? You know, what do you do? Are their pet, you know, grief cards? You know, how do I how do I treat this because if they lost a person, you come into the house, you bring them a casserole, and you you know, you sit with them and you do all kinds of stuff. When people lose a dog, we just kind of say, well, it's just a dog. Well, I think you tapped on something really important. And that is to treat, treat people the same, you know, and bring them food, take out the trash, ask them what they need. And if you're if you're uncomfortable, you're not sure just ask the person. How can I show up for you, I care about you. I don't understand what you're going through. But I want to help you, you know, can I get you a book? What would you like for me to do? And honestly, just picking up the phone and saying, Hey, I'm here for you. Do you want to get to movie do you want to be alone? It's not simple. Um, there are there are pet loss sympathy cards I made. I made some because a lot of veterinarians said, Hey, we really like your stuff, but we can't afford that as a gift, right? We can't just buy those in bulk. So we always send a card and there's basically like one type of pet loss card and it's a rainbow bridge. hard. And then people are tired of that. And the vet say, I can't send that to somebody more than once, you know, our customers have four or five animals. So I've kind of listened to the industry and listen to what people want, and then fill in that gap. And I just finished doing a pet loss coloring book. It's got some, it's always great. And I love using my creativity to do something meaningful. You know, I have an art background. And that's a big passion of mine, too. So of doing pet portraits, for example, those take a lot of time. They're very meaningful. Okay, so so people can come to you and you do portraits for their pets. Absolutely. Yeah.

Unknown: 22:29

But

Brian Smith: 22:31

it's wonderful that you're doing all these offerings, because as you said, there, there is a there's a need there. You know, when we have had to have our dogs euthanized. A couple of dogs, you know, I remember our last dog they sent us like her paw print, you know, they took it and they made a popper and they sent it to us. And they said, they sent a card. And it's really nice. But you know, it's great that that's did that. And I'm not complaining about other people. But people don't do that, in general, though, you know, because we don't know how to acknowledge that loss.

Erica Messer: 23:02

Right. And but again, I think it's it's more simple than people realize it's just asking basic questions like, what for you. And then to not be surprised that grief takes a long time to heal. So that person, you can show up for them. And then three weeks later, they're not going to be the same. They're not going to just snap back. And that's, I think, the hard part for people to realize, and I experienced that to the friends that I did have here in Munich, and that I had made, you know, I didn't have a 20 year relationship with them or anything. And I think some of them were surprised that I was still grieving weeks later. And this has been bad. Time for real quick break. Make sure you like and subscribe, liking the video will show it to more people on YouTube, and subscribe, you'll make sure you get access to all my great content in the future. And now back to the video. It's not something I just shrugged off. Yeah. So that's a that's a difficult thing, I think on both sides is for for the Grievers to have to navigate, you know, what they're experiencing? And then for the friends, family, colleagues, neighbors, to be there long term? Yeah. And and say, Okay, I may still not understand what you're going through. I'm sorry, I, you know, I can see, it's hard for you. What, what can I do to help, that's just a beautiful thing, regardless of any kind of loss to ask people. And it did want to say that we have a lot of dimension, that love letter. And I made a template that's free to download. And it's just really nice kind of stationery. And so there's things that that people can go to wolfies wish for and download and use. And you can even download that and give it to someone. Right? So there's, I try to provide a lot of solutions and

Brian Smith: 24:55

suggestions for people. Yeah, that's wonderful. And you brought up a point I want to I want to emphasize you talked about like, people think you're gonna get over it quickly. And it's this is true, again, with humans or with pet loss, but I think probably even especially with pet loss, people are gonna think, Okay, well, I understand you're sad for a week, or maybe a couple of weeks. But you know, it's been six months, you know, are you are you still grieving that an animal and the question is, yeah, we still do. It's very normal might see my dog Chloe has been gone for

Erica Messer: 25:27

1215 years now. Yeah, probably like about that long. I still think about her all the time. So it's, I think it's a normal thing. What was your favorite thing about Chloe? Oh, she was a miniature schnauzer. So she was fiery. She she was just, she was feisty. She and I had many, many battles. It was the first dog I'd ever had. And I was like, you know, this dog's neck gotta run me. So she and I, if you've been around, terriers, there she was, that was my favorite thing about her just really feisty. And I look at how you're you, well, people can't see you. But you're smiling now. And I think, you know, what a great question to ask people. Right? When they've lost someone that they've loved or, or a pet that they loved or even or even a relationship what was your What was your favorite thing about that? Person pet experience and try to like shift the sadness, which is always going to be there. I'm not saying it deny it, but shift to a what was good. Right. And that's I think a lot of what wolfies wishes about is shifting your, your your energy into what are the what's, what have I learned from this? What's the joy? Where's the love? Yeah, let's honor that. And remember that because the sad stuffs always going to be there. There's always going to be a void. But what do we do? with it, and how do we, how do we put us make our heart you know, give it a nice scar, and keep going. And I think for me, in my experience, looking at the relationship, how lucky I was to find him during the pandemic, when all the shelters were emptied. And so a stranger drove me an hour outside of town to pick him up from a barn. You know, this I look at I look at it that way, like how lucky was I to have him even if it was only a year and a half?

Brian Smith: 27:14

What a great and literally transforming experience that was for me. Yeah. Well, again, we're saying pet loss as if it's different from human loss or loss is the is the same in terms of losses as loss, even though each one's individually different. But when it comes to our grief, it's, it's that shift that you just talked about, if we can make that when instead of thinking about what we're missing, to remember what we were blessed with how lucky we were to have that relationship forever long it was and, you know, again, talking about my dog, Chloe, she was our first pet, you know, 30 I came do the math that but many, many years ago, well, she's three years older than my daughter. So she'll be Chibi 30 Now, but she was, she was our first pet, right? So I still have that, that feeling. And I can recall those good memories. And it's same thing with when we lose a person, it's like, think about what you had, as opposed to what you're missing. And making that shift is important. Yeah, and doing that with people that understand is important. So it's one thing to journal, which I think is wonderful. Especially because you can refer back to and read reread things, but to be in a support group, or have family and friends that that can share those experiences, you know, I've lost both my grandparents, my parents are still alive. But

Erica Messer: 28:39

when we get together, we share stories, you know, of the funny things, you know, both my grandmother's had dementia, and they got quite animated at the end, and said some pretty crazy stuff. You know, it was it was hard for us because they were and I don't mean to digress too much, but, but my point is that, you know, remembering the impact that they had on us and the world and just sharing, sharing the positive experiences really did a lot and does a lot for my mental health and well being.

Brian Smith: 29:12

I noticed in reading about you, you talked about I know an aspiration, at least at the time you wrote it about providing music services to animal hospices. So I've a couple questions there. First of all, I didn't know there were hospices for animals. I didn't either. Okay. Yeah. So I found that, you know, here I kind of came to this crossroads, and I've really been examining my life the past two years, like what? Okay, now we're doing well, fees, which what do I do with my music that I've done since I was a baby?

Erica Messer: 29:45

And I said, Well, prior to the pandemic, I was working on a certification and clinical musicianship, right, so I was already playing in hospitals and end of life facilities in in the Bay Area, and I really wanted to do more. So I'm finishing that but decided, well, why why not tap into this on? You know, let me just look at how I can apply this to animals because, and then I started researching that animals respond to music the same way we do. Very similar. So for instance, classical music, there's studies where, you know, puppies will just pile up and fall asleep. And so it's really interesting and I I want to be able to record and release my music on streaming services, not only to help people grieve, and a relaxing, you know, playlist, which I already have on YouTube, for heart, but I would really like to get into Yeah, veterinary hospitals or have playlists for for people that have pets and palliative care, and even daycare facilities, right doggy daycare, like why I wish there were I wish there was enough harvest in the world to just go in and person and you know, play play for naptime. But having playlists specific, you know, for specific needs I think is just really sounds really fun to me.

Brian Smith: 31:12

It's gonna take a little while for me to really get that going because I want to finish my certification beyond you know, get with a mentor and so yeah, it's a long term goal, but still sounds really fun. Yeah, well, it's another thing that I think there's there's a need for and again, I there wasn't where there were doggy hospices are animal hospices. And end of life for animals is always a big issue for pet owners. Because unlike with people, a lot of times we get to or how

Erica Messer: 31:43

have to make that decision for them. So is that something that you've worked with people on or thought about? Yeah, there's something. So I joined the International Association for animal hospice and palliative care. And they just went to a conference a couple months ago. And it was very enlightening. And I think the biggest takeaway I got from the veterinarians was like, it's better a month too early than a day too late to say goodbye to your pet, you know, we're going to have a hard time, no matter what. But we want our animals to have quality care, we want them to have, you know, we don't want them to be in pain and suffering. And so it's better to err to say goodbye early than it is late. And so I learned that, but also that, you know, there's a whole specialty of Veterinary Medicine designed to, to help with pain relief and, and end of life care for pets. And it's, these are beautiful people that basically devoted their life, you know, to helping animals and have a very hard time. You know, it's hard on them to I mean, they basically kill for a living. And, I mean, I hate to put it that way, it's so blunt, but it's true. And they they also experience grief and, and sadness. And you know, it's something I it's important for me to speak out for, for the veterinarians that they're doing everything they can to help your animal. You know, in remote, remember that they can't communicate, they can't ask questions like we can, when we go to the doctor, and you're doing the best they can. And I think sometimes when people get bad news or you know, find out their animals terminally ill they take it out on the veterinarian, which is just No, bring it to support group come and join us, it will be Swish, and let's talk about it.

Brian Smith: 33:32

veterinarians are just, they're just some of the most amazing people. Do you get people in your support groups that say, I think I did it too early? And I should have I should have held on longer?

Erica Messer: 33:45

No, I mean, that's not my experience. But again, I don't have a lot of I mean, I'm still new at this. Basically a startup, I'm sure there are people that feel that way, I think they're going to feel guilty no matter what I think guilt is, I mean, guilt is a natural part of grief, you know, I wouldn't do that, even though this accident wasn't my fault. I still feel guilty, like, I should have done something or I should have done this different, or I should have prevented this, or we get into these stories. But at the end of the day, the guilt doesn't help us. And it was able to see that and say, Wow, this is really hurting me, this isn't helping at all. So I think I that's something that I bring to the groups is, you know, they're administered by counselors. I'm not a pet loss counselor, I'm certified in bereavement. But that's just to be able to talk to people and get them the help they need. So I think acknowledging grief, guilt and helping letting people realize that it doesn't serve anything.

Brian Smith: 34:50

So would you be willing to let it go? Would you be willing to look at alternative ways of looking at what happened? Yeah, and the reason I asked that question is because my work, guilt is very common in grief, it's almost universal, we find a way to blame ourselves, whether it's a pet person, whatever, whether they died by an accident, if it was cancer. And then again, because we have that responsibility with our animals, we get to say, when we're going to have them euthanized, and how we're going to have them euthanize, because now there's great places to actually even come to your house. So now I feel guilty that I took my dog to the vet, you know, it's like, actually had someone come to the house.

Unknown: 36:17

So we can always find a way to say we could have done it better. And there is no perfect time. So I know, people will say, Well, I did it too soon, you know? Or maybe I should have done it sooner after it's over. Right? Because now I realize how much pain they were in. So that's a responsibility that as a pet owner that we take on and we know when we get a pet we kind of it kind of comes with the territory. Yeah, so there are counselors that are designed to help help people make these decisions and navigate this end of life area because there's a lot of gray area and when our emotions are involved, it's even harder to think clearly and make good decisions. But I like to remind people that, you know, your pet could have never found a home your pet could be could have been one of the strays or in the in the shelter. And so you are giving this animal the best life you can and that's enough. There's no perfect

Erica Messer: 37:17

answer. There's no perfect solution. You know, hindsight is 2020 We do that to ourselves. I say, Oh, if I knew what I knew now and I was 20 He Oh yeah, that would be the like, that's just part of I think humanity is to, to overanalyze and to beat ourselves up. I hate to say that, but it's the at least everyone I know will agree with me that there's a part of life that's like that. And to some of it, it's good, we need that. But if it's hurting us or hindering us, or, you know, helping making us suffer, it's time to look at it and let it go. Yes, absolutely. 100% I completely agree with that. And we can look back and we can always say, I could have done something different, I should have done something different. It's up. But as you said, How is this? How is this serving me, it's what you have to think about? Yeah, what's going to make what's going to help me get through this and, you know, get on with tomorrow. And that's, there's a process that I had to go through myself and learn. And I love that I had this experience to grow and then to share that with other people has given you know, my life a lot of meaning. And I liked my job and my life before as a musician, I was always playing in weddings, and you know, in these hospitals, but to speak up about pet loss is been has been a turned into a gift. I didn't want to do it first. But now I look at it as a okay. This is this is really needed. Someone's got to stick their neck out there and say, you know, I didn't want to be here and say all those things that no one wants to say. Yeah, well, now I'm gonna get to the woowoo questions, because it's the growth and few you know, we talk about the afterlife and stuff right here. You mentioned earlier that you felt like Wolfie was a soul animal. Do you feel like this was maybe planned for your life? Or that you? You know, do you feel? Do you feel willfully now that he's gone? Do you still have any connection with them? Yeah, that's a great question. And something that I'm still evaluating and trying to navigate. But I do think it was actually just thinking about this morning, like, Okay, this, I mean, the way he went, there's just so many things that had to be just like the perfect storm kind of thing. And, okay, there's got to be a reason for that. And even if I'm making up that, there has to be a reason that helps me, and that's okay with me. To, to be honest, I've been reading a lot of books, I read a lot of self help books, I like them. I think they're cool. And there's always something to learn in there. I just finished this one by Gabby Bernstein, called Super attractor. And there's a whole chapter in there. That's woowoo and a little uncomfortable to read. But it's about guardian angels and spirit guides. And I went, okay. She says, to just try this on and be open. And so I, you know, kind of did some visualization and meditation around it. And honestly, I felt more connected to Wolfgang than ever. I started having dreams about him. Never have I had a dream about him. I can't explain these things. And that's okay with me. But it sir, is interesting and gives me gives me some peace, which I think it's the most important thing.

Brian Smith: 40:43

You know, it's really interesting to me, because, you know, most of us believe that humans have souls. I think throughout history, you know, people believe that the humans have souls or humans are souls, I think is set a better way to put it. But I hear somebody, they'll draw a hard line between humans and animals. And you're like, well, humans have souls. But animals don't have souls, you know. And it reminds us watching a show last night this little girl was she was speaking to her teacher. She said, humans are animals and teachers know humans are not animals. And it's like, well, yeah, we are we're mammals. We're so if we believe that humans have souls, why would we not believe that animals have souls or our souls? And I I personally believe that animals are more connected to the other side than we are that and if people that have had, I haven't had cats, I've had dogs. Like when your dog was stares off into space, or your and harbor, her cats do this too. Or your cat looks like there's something going across the room. I think they can see into a dimension that that we can.

Erica Messer: 41:46

That's really cool to think about. Because, you know, we have all this? Hell no, we've got a lot of stuff going on in our heads. And I think animals are just pure, they don't have that. And maybe they are better connected. I definitely feel that, you know, and since I've said this and come out and said that a lot of people have agreed that they think, you know, their their animal is something else in an animal's body. Like there's, there's just more there than than meets the eye so to speak. And, and that's okay, you don't have to broadcast it, but it's it's a special thing.

Brian Smith: 42:25

Yeah, well, again, I don't mean to to drag you down there, you know, but for me, when I deal with people with grief, it brings another level of comfort. If, if, if you have this belief, you know, and as you said, you point out a really good point when it comes to wolfies passing, okay? Was it preordained? Was it set up to have meaning in that way? Or did I create meaning from it. And either way, the result is the same. You're doing this work, because of Wolfie being in your life. And you're getting this fulfillment out of this work because of Wolfie being in your life. And just possibly, you know, you mentioned okay, I've read this book, and, and this is weird, I'm going to explore it, but maybe maybe you'll have a connection with him that you you weren't expecting. So two things they could both be true things can happen randomly. And we can create meaning or things might happen for a reason.

Erica Messer: 43:23

You think it can be both? And I've thought about that, too. And I said, Well, I'm going to choose, I get to choose, yes, I want to do with this information I can to choose how I want to perceive everything around me. And I choose to think that it happened for a reason. Because that gives me meaning it gives me something to do with it. And turn it around, I could easily Brian had been had been the person to stay at home and throw a pity party every single day for the rest of my life. And tell everyone the sad story of what happened. Play a victim. And that's okay, too. But I didn't want to live my life that way. I said, Oh, I gotta find a way through this. So, back to your back to your comment about you know, if animals. If animals have souls, one of the veterinarians that I met this past summer at one of the conferences said, you know, we have this conversation and she said, You know, when I'm when I'm euthanizing an animal, I can feel their spirit leave. And I said, What? Tell me more this your doctor, like, what? He said, Yeah, absolutely. Every time I can almost feel their spirit leave their body and kind of dissipate. And I went, that's amazing. And she said, that's what I love about my job is that I know that I'm doing I'm doing a service for this animal, and helping them and getting, you know, taking them out of like any pain or suffering.

Brian Smith: 45:02

Isn't that interesting? Yeah, I think it's very interesting. And so again, I'm not here to force my beliefs on anyone, but I just want people to think if you believe that people have souls, then what would limit you know, your dog or your cat from having a soul? They're sure act like it, you know? That? Yeah, it's like my daughter. She was when she was taking psychology classes in undergrad they were they would debate in their classes, whether animals have consciousness and I would have like, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Of course, animals have consciousness. You know, it's to me it's it's blatantly obvious that animals have, you know, a similar type of consciences that we do. And with your, with your vet, I you know, Doctor talk, but I had that experience with my my dog that we put down a couple years ago. I was there in the room when when she was euthanized. And I felt like I felt her pass through me, you know, as she was as or as the spirit was leaving. And I'm not typically a kind of person that feels stuff like that. And that was actually validated by someone else in the room. And a third party later on said that my daughter Shana, who passed she was telling me when you when you saw we left, Shana was in the corner of the room, and she met her. And my other daughter was in the room. Verify that she'd experienced that also. So I, for me, I say I have no doubt that animals you know, have spirits are spirits. And you mentioned the rainbow Rainbow Bridge earlier. I 100%. I know that I know. It's old now. I know. It's tired. It's you know, but I think it's absolutely true.

Erica Messer: 46:45

That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that story. That's really beautiful and special. And what a wonderful experience to have. I haven't experienced anything like that. But yeah, the Rainbow Bridge is a great metaphor, isn't it? And a more gentle way to talk about pet loss grief. In fact, when Wolfgang died, it was the first time I'd heard that term and really said what? My aunt said it to me she's like, oh, yeah, he's crossed the Rainbow Bridge, like, like, enjoined all the other pets. And I was like, What are you talking about? And then there's this poem. And, you know, there's all this merchandise on Etsy. I mean, it's just a thing. Yeah, I've learned so much in the past two years.

Brian Smith: 47:25

There's just everything around peds. And but I really I still like Rainbow Bridge is still like it. It just I feel like it's a little overdone with pet loss gifts. Yeah, yeah. You know, the thing about cliches is they're cliche for a reason. And I think that reds and I think I tried to look it up a little while ago, nobody knows where it came from. I could never find an origin for it. But one of my daughters, I forgot which one it was wrote something very similar. Never having seen it. And I think the reason why it's so popular is it resonates with people, I think there's a vestigial memory that we have of like, that's what it's like. And so when people read it, you know, even me thinking about it, and I saw it, I don't even know how many decades ago, probably 20, you know, 20 years ago. But every time I think about it, it just, it resonates with me. And I think that's why people they like, you know, again, we could say the people just want to believe that or is it something that people kind of feel in their spirit is true?

Erica Messer: 48:32

I don't think it matters. You know, it's this Jen is gives me a sense of peace thinking about any animal crossing a rainbow bridge, what a beautiful send off versus this just unknowing. Right. And, and I think that's what, that's what makes it stick around is like it's this you get a sense of peace when you think about it. And that's all we all want is we want peace at the end of the day. And it's like, how do we find that what, and it's different for everybody. And I have no bias against, you know, what people want to do if they want to talk to a psychic or do Tarot or do anything that's, you know, unconventional, and it's gonna give them peace. I say go for it, go for it. 100%. And that's been a big change for me to be open to just about every kind of modality that's going to help somebody is at the end of the day, it's how are they going to live the rest of their life

Brian Smith: 49:29

and find joy again, that's what I want people. And I think that's yeah, and then people made arguments about going back to animals and their their consciousness that, you know, our dogs are probably more enlightened than we are because they live in the moment. And how many of us are trying to live in the moment, right? We're trying to not not live in the past and not worry about the future. And you know, your dog's not thinking about anything past dinner.

Erica Messer: 49:53

That's so true. And children are like that, too. You know, they, they're just right there in the moment. They don't think about what they ate yesterday, or what so and so said.

Brian Smith: 50:03

Wouldn't it be beautiful if we could all live like that? Yeah, so I think I wish I could. Yeah, I think that's one of the I think that's one of the reasons why we're attracted to our animals. Because, again, you know, you know, sometimes I get upset with my dog and I might, you know, yell at her or something. But she doesn't remember 30 seconds later, you know, it's just like, she's over it. She she's like, uh, you know, we're moving on.

Erica Messer: 50:29

Yeah, I have a similar story. That happened just today. Oh, really? Tell me about it. Oh, it's just, it was a funny, I had a funny morning. I, I spilled a pot of French press coffee before I even like, punched it. And then I did it again. So I cleaned it up. Again. The second time, I just had the biggest tantrum of fit screaming at the universe. Like, what? What's next? And I scared my cat so bad. Right? I was like, throwing stuff around the room. It was such a mess. I was like, Well screw it all. And then I thought if she didn't come back and ever like,

Brian Smith: 51:05

right, that afternoon, she's like, Oh, it's time for nap. Can I sit in your lap? Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's again, I think it's why we love them so much. Because it is that unconditional love. It's the lack of judgment. You know, they can they can see us any way. And you know, we don't care. They don't care. So we have we have that connection. So I appreciate you exploring this with me because I for me, I think the connection goes on. And I'll tell you one more story because I tell this before, but it's at this really appropriate for this podcast, I have a friend she happens to be a medium. So she talks to spirits on the other side and stuff. And she's with their husband or I think it was a boyfriend at the time. And they're visiting another friend and this guy goes, this damn dog keeps staring off in the corner all the time. I don't understand why this dog is always staring in the corner. And I guess like when he would go over there, he would always talk about his dog staring in the corner. And one day she said, Do you want me to tell you why your dog's staring in the corner? And he goes, Yeah, and she says, Well, there's two dogs and I remember the names and she gives their names the breed they are. She said they're over in that corner all the time. That's why your dog's staring at them. And he turns to his friend who's her boyfriend and says, Did you tell her about these dogs and cats? He goes, No, I've never told her about your dogs. So his dog is current dog was perceiving his other dogs? Who are they're still in the shop, you know, playing around.

Erica Messer: 52:37

So that's to me, you know, an indication that our, our pets go on as much as we do. Wow. Yeah, I've heard a lot of stories about that I, I, you know, I've got a Facebook support group, and people can post and write about whatever they want. And only rules in there is that you can't, you've got to be open minded and positive. Yeah, not gonna shame anybody or do anything negative. It's a positive environment. And I see I hear so many cool stories about people they're coming in, they're so excited. They're like, Oh, I just talked to this, this, this medium, and, wow, I feel so much better. And I got all this great information. And, you know, they say, I didn't tell that person, anything they already knew. That's so great. Look at, you know, I can I can feel your energy and that you've really shifted, and

Brian Smith: 53:27

it's fascinating. Yeah, it is, it is. So I just again, I encourage people to, you know, explore and to be to be open to that possibility. Because for me, that helps a lot with when it comes to dealing with with grief. Just that idea of that ongoing connection. But again, back to back to you and your story. You know, I just look at how Wolfie has transformed your life. I mean, the things you're doing, and not just your life, but all the people that you're touching that ripple effect that's going out, because you brought because you brought him in, it's pretty incredible.

Erica Messer: 54:05

Well, I think he found me, I think we found each other, you know, and, and, and I feel really lucky for that. And it is great when I get I get emails from people all over the world that somehow you know, I go to these international trade shows. So the stuff gets carried far and wide. And when I get this one little boy in Kuwait wrote me and he said every day after school, I go and visit my cat's grave. He's 10 years old. And I I've just, you know, it's been really hard. But he wrote he would he read this book I wrote called Tales of spirit cats, which is what our cats get to do after they've crossed the Rainbow Bridge. And he's like, read that book six times. I love it, I cried. You know, and just getting messages like that, that one person, you know, got something out of something that I made. It was really good. And to know that he can read that book and laugh and cry, and then imagine his own cat doing, you know, adventures, like riding the subway or going on vacation. And again, it's all about shifting our energy and what we're focusing on. And what's going to help us sleep at night. Sleep was really hard for me for a long time. Yeah, it is for other people. And so what what are the things that are going to help us get there? Yeah. Erica, thank you so much for being here today. I like for you did tell people about that. Because we went through some of your resources, I like to maybe you could give us a summary. And where people can find them. All right. Well, for anyone that's on Facebook, we've got wolfies wish pet loss support group, it's a private group, just answer some questions, be a good person you can come in, we just started last month having virtual support led by one of four counselors, who are also admins in that group. And then just at wolfies, which.com, we've got, of course, the gift shop where I write and publish things, got the coloring books, you know, the grieving card decks. And then there's also the Resources page, which has, which has interviews with pet professionals. So you can find one that works for you. We've got a blog, there are references to other support groups and, and resources and books. And it just keeps growing. So I hope we'll fees which will be one of the you know, one stop shop websites that people can go to. And I hope more of them spring up. I think pet loss resources are really needed all across the world immediately. So and thank you for having me on here. Because then we get to carry this message farther and wider than me and my mom can.

Brian Smith: 56:44

So thank you for that. No, I really appreciate you being here. And I think it is a very valuable and needed resource. Again, normalizing the feelings that we have after pet loss and also offering people resources that they can go to so happy to have you here happy to have you as a resource for the people that are listening. Thank you. All right, well, thanks a lot for doing this. Have a great rest of your day. You too.