Cathy Jane Jensen- Searching For Her Son On The Other Side

When Aaron Schaeffer died, his mother Cathy Jane Jensen knew that could not be the end. The "loss" of her son set her on a quest that has turned into a worldwide mission.

Religion asks us to believe without questioning. Atheistic Materialism is no better. Acquiring a truth for yourself is a very different process than accepting a belief. Cathy is determined to help as many people as possible discover the truth for themselves.

Cathy's book is chock full of evidence that this world is far from the mechanistic, cold place we have been led to believe it is. The book chronicles many of her experiences with her son Aaron and others previously referred to as "dead". Cathy also has filled the book with valuable resources to help you from both a scientific and philosophical perspective. Our conversation in this interview touches on all of this. Cathy wants to help people understand and overcome the subconscious beliefs we all hold that keep us from fully understanding who and what we are.

You can find Cathy at:

https://mission7255.net/

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I've been studying Near Death Experiences for many years now. I am 100% convinced they are real. In this short, free ebook, I not only explain why I believe NDEs are real, I share some of the universal secrets brought back by people who have had them.

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Transcript

Brian Smith: 0:56

Now that you're here at Grief 2 Growth, I'd like to ask you to do three things. The first thing is to make sure that you like click Notifications, and subscribe to make sure you get updates for my YouTube channel. Also, if you'd like to support me financially, you can support me through my tip jar at grief to growth, calm, it's grief, the number two growth.com/tip jar or look for tip jar at the very top of the page, or buy me a coffee at the very bottom of the page and you can make a small financial contribution. The third thing I'd like to ask is to make sure you share this with a friend through all your social media, Facebook, Instagram, whatever. Thanks for being here. Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if like a seed we've been planted and having been planted, who grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Hey everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth. And I have to say before we get started, if you are watching this, then you notice I'm wearing sunglasses today I'm dealing with an eye infection. The lights are hurting my eyes and it's kind of that great to look at. So that's why wearing sunglasses I'm not trying to be cool or anything. But I've got with me today Kathy Jensen, and as you're going to find out in a few moments, Kathy has a fascinating mind. She's really interesting to talk to. We did a pre interview a little while ago, I've read her book finding Aeron, which is a spiritual practice beyond belief. It's an incredible book. So we're going to get through as much as we can today. I know we have a lot to talk about. Let me just read a brief bio on Kathy and then I'll bring her in. Kathy has a master's degree in theoretical linguistics. She taught at the University of Iowa, which is the Hawkeyes to us football fans. I'm a I'm a big federal, big 10 person to Ohio State. She taught in the linguistics department at English as a Second Language Program. She was awarded a Fulbright lecturer award to teach at the University of the Andes in the language department and Marina Venezuela. So she was in Venezuela for several years. Is that where you met your husband, Kathy?

Cathy Jane Jensen: 3:29

No, I actually met him and I was sitting when he was doing his master's degree.

Brian Smith: 3:33

Okay, so you guys moved to Venezuela together. So she lived in Venezuela for quite a bit of time, she opened the Iowa Institute Language Academy in Venezuela. She taught English and Spanish to move from Venezuela to Spain. And Kathy has a son Aaron, who is in spirit. Now we're gonna be talking about Aaron because Aaron is the inspiration for the book. So I want to just get a little bit of background on you, Kathy, but welcome to grifter growth. Thank you very, very much. And I'm happy to be here. Yeah, I just said I think people are I know people are going to find out very soon. You've got a very interesting mind we talked before, and I think we're kindred spirits in the fact that we both feel like we're here to, to teach and and to really kind of help people out. So tell us about your journey, how you got from Iowa, to Venezuela to Spain? And also tell us about Aaron.

Cathy Jane Jensen: 4:27

Okay, well,

Unknown: 4:29

I had it. We'll start with Aaron I had here in Des Moines, Iowa. I was very young, 17 years old. His father, Joe Shafer, who is in Spirit also, you know, we didn't stay together very long. We were very young. And when there was about eight, we went to this wedding. And Erin struck up this friendship with a local Sanchez. And they decided to go bowling and this and that. So Laiho came into our lives when Aaron was about eight or nine, and he is from Spain. But he had lived in Venezuela for a very long time. He was a professor at the University of Los Andes. And he was in Iowa doing his master's degree. So hello, who and I then got together? That's actually what prompted me to go into linguistics was learning about teaching English as a second or foreign language. And so that I did that I got my master's Erin and I moved to Venezuela. And then a level two, we had made the promise that when he went to do his PhD, he would come back to Iowa, which in fact, is what he did. So we came back to Iowa, Aaron went back to city high school with all of his friends and this and that. And then a lady who got his PhD was back in Venezuela and I got to Fulbright to teach at the school. They're at the university. So okay, everything's fine. We have still have, but now it's totally different. A beautiful farm in the Andes with peacocks and guinea hens and ducks and geese and cows and we had our own cheese made her own cheese and you know, kind of idealic and I opened up the school, I left the university open up the school, the Iowa Institute, and Aaron met candy castee. Joe, he worked cable. So he would work in the States for six months, and then he'd come to Venezuela for six months. So as an adult, we had the unusual and wonderful opportunity to spend lots and lots of time together. That was about eight or nine years where he's six months in Venezuela. Six months in the States. He and candy got married. Venezuela was then falling apart. And we knew we needed to make some changes. My mother in law was there in Venezuela, so it was difficult to decide what to do. Then Aaron moved to Spain, invited us to go I went, had a beautiful, beautiful time with Aaron. Had all of our plans made he was going to come to Venezuela do teacher training, then we were going to open a school in Spain. So I left from that beautiful trip. I was there for two months, during which time Brian during which time he told me twice. He thought he was going to die before I did. And at the time, of course I just basically told him to Don't ever say that again. And that when you get to. Uh huh. What age was he at this time? 37. Okay, okay. Yeah. So we had all of our plans made, I left on June 3, came back to Venezuela. So we knew we were going to, you know, try to sell the farm. And Elijah was retired by then. And he was thinking to move his his pension to Spain and bla bla bla. So I'm Erin had a little house that I had helped him by some guy called, I went back June 3 to Venezuela. But some guy out of the blue called me and said, you know, this little house over here, would you be interested in selling it? So I met that guy, Aaron was very interested in selling it. I met him, he decided he wanted to buy the house, he did the made arrangements for the money transfer. And I said, you know, maybe we should sign a paper. And he told me, he said, You know, I really wouldn't think I needed to accept my best friend just died five days ago have a heart attack. So on June 28, we signed this paper, he's buying the house. And on July 2, Aaron passed just out of the blue. So as you know, and parents listening and people who have loved or love someone so much, and they die. So suddenly, anyway, just, I couldn't believe it. I was in shock and all that kind of stuff. And I wanted to die for a long, long time. Then on July 8, just six days after Aaron had passed. So we were in a place called portal, the cruise we had a lot of stuff laid, why not? You know, financially very successful. We were getting ready to go to Spain, which took me a long time to be able to even go on the airplane. But then on July 8, at 230 in the morning, I was I wasn't really asleep, but then all of a sudden, I was wide awake, Brian and it was like this incredible feeling of joy. I mean, it was a joy. It like ran through my body. And I was so shocked that I just like got this recorder. And it was like I heard these words or I felt them. And it was that everything was okay. Erin is okay, everything was fine. And then the words I heard you know, I'm a good mom for Aaron, that I had listened to his ideas that I had paid attention to them and that to be patient with myself. That patience is my virtue. Okay, then that was huge. I wrote I made a promise. And I said, Okay, are no matter what I'm going to find you no matter what I'm going to find you. And I wrote it down. And I laminated it, and I carried it with me. And when I would be falling into that despair, I'd bring it back out because I couldn't understand where that feeling came from I I couldn't figure out what had happened but it had happened. It had happened. And so that and then I started keeping track of everything keeping track of everything and that that's what initiated this, this quest of finding Aaron and That's where the book comes from to the book, you know, was five years in the making was a very difficult to write book in the sense that I had so many beliefs about death that I didn't know that I had. And that's what I hope that people who do read the book, I would like to say it is so important to become aware of what you believe about death, but don't even know that you believe it. Yeah, that's the gist of it.

Brian Smith: 11:27

And that is a very, very important point that I want to I want to kind of bring out so what were some of the beliefs you had about death? But you didn't even know that you had?

Unknown: 11:36

Okay, well, I have, you know, there's two, there's two main myths, makers, or model makers is a better word in Western society. One is science, you know, for about 400 years or so science. And the other one is the church. And even those, like me, I didn't, I was raised Catholic, but Irish Catholic, who's, you know, very open to saints and this and that, but I was not in any way, shape, or form a serious Catholic, let's say. But yet I had this meet, so many people would tell me things, like, for example, the book is self published. And when I went in to talk to the people about publishing it, the guy, the previous owner of the publishing place, he said, You know, I'd like to make a copy of the back of the book. And I was just like, so pleased thinking, Oh, my goodness, it's made an impression. And he came back in and he handed it to me, he goes, You know, it's forbidden to collaborate or even to communicate with the dead, it's forgiveness, for bending the Bible. So on the what we call the, you know, the religious side, our culture has all of these ingrained ideas, that unless you're highly motivated, you don't, you don't go through those beliefs, you just kind of have them, they determine your reactions to things they. And then the other one, of course, is the last 400 years of science. So my main block isn't Newtonian classic physics model, or material realism is what I call it in the book. That idea is way deep down inside, even if we don't know that we think this we most of us do, that. Everything comes from matter. That matter is coming. And that's why you know, they keep looking for the tiniest part of matter, thinking if they find it, they're gonna find out how, how it became conscious. But but so. So I had an incredible amount of experiences like Aaron has never given up. And other people, my father in law that we had experiences before that I wrote down just because they were so unusual. You know, I wrote everything down, but then I kind of forgot about it until my dad died. And then Aaron. So I just remember struggling, it was so horrible. I would, I would have this message or a symbol of eternity really? And, and I would be so sure. And so enthusiastic, and so certain, I'd never doubt. But then I would start doubting, I would say, but how, you know, how could Aaron move matter? How could this work? All of that doubt is tied into this belief that I didn't know that I had that. Basically, it narrows down to the brain produces consciousness. So if you have that idea that the brain produces consciousness, well, without a brain, there's no, there's absolutely no survival of consciousness. I mean, it's just not there. So. And I remember the day I was in Spain, I remember the day and I must have read it. I don't know, probably 100 times in so many different books. But finally that day, it got in and I just remember like, Oh, my God, this, this is the problem.

Brian Smith: 15:51

Yeah, Kathy, I love the way put that I think it's brilliant. Because we do we had these two pillars of knowledge in our society. And it's the it's the religion, you know, which binds us in certain ways, you know, but could it keeps us from believing certain things like our loved ones can still be with us being communicated. And then we got the materialism that we're all steeped in, which tells us that your religion is just wishful thinking. So we even though we think we believe we, we always have this underlying doubt. Right. Right. Yeah. And I think you and I are very similar because I asked the question to how it how does Shayna do this? How does she make a song Come on the radio? How does how does this work? And that's that Western mindset.

Unknown: 16:35

Right? Right. And you know what I think I think for religious people, that's the most the easiest belief to get acquainted with. and work your way out of it is the science one, because you start reading about, you know, Max Planck, and all of these physicists who absolutely say that material realism is just a theory. It's just a theory. And we've absorbed it as a fact, well, inside of that theory, anything that can't be reproduced in the lab repeatedly, you know, is is not data for investigation. So they just can't, they just can't investigate it. But religion, most of our western religions have absorbed that belief, nice, deep down inside of the very religious, so they don't want to investigate, because they're afraid that their belief is not really true. But in fact, it is true. So if people will be courageous enough, because it takes a certain kind of courage, and it takes a certain sort of motivation, also, to really get familiar with the ideas and the truth behind your religion, which is what Thomas Aquinas did, which I found that a fascinating research area that he he tried very hard to take the beliefs and, and research them and find the truth in them in a way that we can understand, you know, rationally so that then the fear factor goes away. Also, if you start to understand all of these different things that are happening, well, let me let me say this, you know, and Joseph Campbell's model, there's two sorts, there's a spiritual hero. And there's two sorts of ways a person goes on this quest, a quest for spiritual knowledge. So he said, a spiritual hero is a person who's found or learned away a mode of experiencing the super normal realm of human spiritual life. Okay, so a mode of experiencing the super normal range of humans spiritual life, there's two ways you do it. One, you're born with this deep desire to know, and there's, you know, nothing's going to stop you. And the other one is something is stolen. And you go to get it back. So for parents, particularly, it seems to me there is no group with more motivation than parents whose children have been stolen. So

Brian Smith: 19:23

that wow, that's so well put, and I had never really thought of it that way before because, you know, you titled The book finding Aaron and so many parents I've seen have written books, and it's always finding, finding, finding, because we feel like we've lost something. And we and that's that that's the thing that the kickstarts assess that they did just kicked us in the button says, I can't just, I can't do this anymore. And you know, what I also love about what you just said, you know, you mentioned the word fear. And there's fear of both sides. I've seen fear from the materialists that they don't want to admit that religion might be true. And I think a lot of fear for people who are religious, that say, Well, science is going to disprove my disprove my belief, so therefore, I can't become scientific.

Unknown: 20:06

Right? Inside just the opposite. You know, and Einstein, there's a quote attributed to Einstein where he said, the only truly religious people in a materialistic, age meet materialistic in the sense of a model that's based on material realism, wherever, if it's not repeatable, if it can't be observed by everybody. It's not dead for investigation. He said, The only really religious people are the serious scientists. And, you know, you look at the Big Bang, that's, you know, one of the main contributors is a priest. And you look at that sharding, that tiltyard, they share data paleontologist. He's a Jesuit priest, and so many in Kepler and Copernicus, and all the early scientists when science had just started veering off from religion, right? Those guys were deeply, deeply religious. And I think interesting about the word religion is I read in something from Carl's film, he says, the real meaning of religion comes from relief hearing, something like that. And it means to take careful in serious account of the numinous to fully integrate it into your life. Yeah,

Brian Smith: 21:28

it's, it's really interesting that and for people that don't, and you and I both have the scientific type type of bent and so people might be getting a little bit last year. But the thing is science and religion, we're all one body of knowledge up until, as you said about 400 years ago. When the when science took a left turn and said that everything's got to be observable, repeatable, and if not, it doesn't exist, you know, and they couldn't study consciousness. So then it got people now tied themselves so much up in knots. So they say the consciousness is an illusion. So you talked about material realism, and the other side of that coin is idealism. And so you might want explain to people what that

Unknown: 22:09

actually means. Well, well, I like to me, I'd like to, I'd like to go into this so called split. So So you know, there was very, very, very religious people who were learning that, for example, the Earth was not the center of the universe. Yeah, so we have this very famous meeting of Galileo demonstrating his telescopes to the religious folks, then, you know, he was under a lot of pressure. And everyone would be afraid to publish if what you publish could get you killed. So he was very careful. And in one of his quotes is like I, I'm assuming that this God who gave me the ability to sync and investigate wants me to use those abilities. So he sat in the meeting, and he writes to his friend, Johannes Kepler. And he says, they won't look through the telescope. They won't even look. Yeah. So. So anyway, we have this happening with Deckard and 1500, something where he's camped with the French army, near Old Germany, which is where Einstein was born later. But so he has this dream, where an angel of truth comes to him and says, The conquest of nature is to be done through measurement and number. So he, of course, was extremely well equipped to do that. He, you know, he's the father of so many things, different numerical methods, and this and that. So what kind of was a compromise, because to publish scientific material could get you executed. This split was made where they said, Okay, we're going to look at the world of matter. We're just talking about the world of matter. Spirit stuff is stained over here with the church. So so the church could then rehab, you know, a field of expertise. And it was just a compromise. It was a compromise of dividing a reality into two fields of investigation. Right? Right. But then that compromise, kind of morphed into this belief that there really was two separate realms MYP, spirit and matter. And then that further morphed into this idea by material realists now that say, well, the only world that's real is the world of matter.

Brian Smith: 25:33

Yeah. And that's, that's a very, very important history for people to understand. Is that because that's what happens, and you put it exactly right. It was like a compromise. And they said, We're gonna put science over here, we'll do our thing, religion, you go over here, and you do your thing. But they still respected each other. They existed, but then the materialist said, Well, now you don't even exist anymore. You know, you guys are setting something that that's just meaningless. And I just want to throw this story in there. Because this happened me just a couple of days ago, we were talking about one of my groups is spiritual thing. We're talking about soul planning or life planning. This person said, I've got enough evidence that I know that this is real. She said that I don't know that it's really proof. And I said there that is coming from that mindset that has told you that the only thing that matters is what's repeatable, like we've done in a lab, and a jury experience is meaningless. And we've gotten to the point now, where not only do we not trust other people's experiences, we don't even trust our own.

Unknown: 26:30

Right, right. Right. Because you know, there's a boat, this is nicely it helped me a lot. It's by Charles tart. And I don't remember the title of it offhand. But inside of there, it's in the in the book. So it's pathologies to knowing and learning. And he says in there that are deeply absorbed and unexamined beliefs, that guide everything we experience, that we unconsciously defend those unconscious beliefs. And the one example he he gave one of them he has many very beautiful, worded defense strategies. And one of the strategies is to start to question the experiencer you know, like You start to say, well, you know, she, she's pretty messed up over Aaron's death. And you know, she got into this really weird stuff when Aaron died. Yes. And so you dismiss, you dismiss the person giving evidence. What I did was, I dismiss myself. And that's what she's doing to she's like,

Brian Smith: 27:46

we do what we do. We say, Well, I must be just grieving. I didn't really experience that. The thing about your book, I mean, before we got on, you mentioned, the book is almost like a textbook. And I can see why it took you five years to writing because it is so detailed that you can tell your audience you know, listening to Kathy, she's, she's right, all these sciences, she knows the history. And then she also catalogs her own experience in great detail when you were going through like the dates, I mean, you know, the dates, and you've taken pictures, and you've got notes, so that you can't even go back and question your own experience, because you've documented it. I really wish I'd done that. And I say to other people that have lost people do that, write it down, document these things. Because as I'm reading your book, I'm like, wow, this is just amazing. But we tend to forget things and we start to dismiss them.

Unknown: 28:36

Right. And not only that, you know, one of the reasons I have done a revision is during during this two years of COVID, I've spent that time studying. And there were some more things I wanted to add. But and I'm far more confident now about adding those. And one of them is more of a model about the evolution of consciousness, just a model, you know, there's many, but a model. And in this model, it talks about one of the components for changing our minds, it's not our beliefs, but actually changing our mode of experiencing. So if you remember Campbell's words, our mode of experiencing is to be very close attention to things that seem disconnected, but feel connected, and you start writing it down, and something changes in you. And Leibniz, who's in the book, also, I use his quote, because he says, notation eases the labor of the mind. And it's not only for not forgetting is somehow the physical act of writing things down, changes your mode of experiencing, you know, slowly but surely it opens up. It's like it opens up new views. But actually, literally,

Brian Smith: 30:06

yeah, yeah. And you know, and you document a lot of synchronicities, you know, in the bus. And I know Gary Schwartz who I've do some work with, he's fascinated by synchronicity. He's got a brilliant mind. And so, you know, as I've been working with Gary, I've been open more to synchronicities. And you're absolutely right. It changes the way you view the world from this Newtonian cause and effect, you know, where I have to figure out why this happened, or that happened. And these two things are unrelated. Therefore, it must be coincidence, to you get to the point where it's like, you start to expect it, and you and you start to look for and the world looks completely different.

Unknown: 30:45

Right. You know, in synchronicity, that was the other there are three big things in the revision synchronicities one of them, because I just speaking for myself, I used that word for many years. But I didn't understand really what I was talking about. Of course, there's always so much more to learn, but at this point of understanding, which is further along than I was. So, synchronicity, it turns out the huge thing about synchronicity was it you know, how the model material realism, it has this causal model where everything happens because of matter in motion. So, they always use that famous example of the billiard balls, like, you hit one ball and hits another and so an event manifests. And behind that, are all these movements of matter bumping into each other, even our thoughts, everything according to this model. But what Carla Hills huge contribution was, synchronicity is he says, it doesn't have to be matter upon matter, the mechanism for the manifestation of the event into the material world and objective event can be meaning meaning so that two minds to psychics working with these material objects, that is the mechanism for those events to manifest. And once you start to think about that, we'll psyche certainly do not have to have a body to work. So if you think about it in relation to our quest, finding our kids and understanding death, you have to psyches, mind and Eric. Yeah. And together, together, these events manifest into the objective world, which this is a key point. If you don't participate, you can't be a recipient, you have to be a participant to be a recipient. And it's not the idea. Well, I just have to believe it. That's not it. You have to participate in the manifestation of that her epiphany or opening door event or whatever you want to call that. That event that is not explained by matter movement upon matter.

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Brian Smith: 34:07

Yeah, that was a point I took out of your book that that really resonated with me and really made a lot of sense. Because again, we still have this this mindset of the billiard balls, right? And people will tell me say, Well, if you give me all the conditions, I can tell you what's gonna happen next. And you and you are just a biological robot you are, you know, you think you have freewill. You think you can choose your thoughts, but you really can't it's all a matter of chemistry. It's a matter of DNA. It's a matter what happened to you in the past, and all the inputs, you know, come to this point, but like you said, what Jung said was like, No, it's not that that's that. That's the mindset is only material but there is this there is this the spiritual is we want to call it and I say to people, there my studies. I don't like the word supernatural, because there is no supernatural. Right? There's only what we can't explain yet. Right? Not it's not it's not all matter. It's not all physical. But there's, there's something there's this consciousness that we cannot explain yet. And we call that supernatural. And people say, I don't believe in that woowoo stuff.

Unknown: 35:11

Right, right. Right. Right. Yeah. That's your first warning. I mean, not warning, it's your first gift, that your path ologies to knowing and learning or rearing up, you know, when you see your son, I don't believe in that. That's your first it's your unconscious defense, against information that goes against your core beliefs. You know, and it's scary. It's scary to think that you your core beliefs, you don't know what they are, you don't really know what they are, unless you investigated them. But you and that's why, you know, we can't talk about politics and religion, because it's, they're based on belief systems and people. People don't, unless they're highly motivated, you know, which I think many of us are, you don't go beyond the beliefs, you just kind of go through life with these beliefs you've absorbed from your community, kind of, you know, going along there, and you won't, you won't question it until something happens. When those beliefs no longer there, they no longer will do they're like, such a precarious vehicle. But belief is just so fragile a vehicle to carry to carry us through life. It's, yeah, it's beliefs, not the answer, you know,

Brian Smith: 36:25

what's the problem? Well, yes. And that's, you know, and that's, you know, it's interesting. You said earlier that some people seem to be born with this, this nine that you have to know more I was, I was born like that. So I always questioned everything. But I still had to have that precipitating event of Shane has passing said, it's it really kicked it into hyperdrive. Before that it was kind of it was a hobby. It was like, I need to know, it's like, you know, there's something wrong. But and I see this again, with so many parents and you said beliefs is such a precarious thing. And it is, because I've seen on the other hand like people, I could think of a great friend who evangelical Christian believes in the Bible, literal belief, you know, member, you know, member of staff, the church lot stuff. And then one day when it just occurred to him that, you know, Noah didn't put all these animals on the ark, or you know, there wasn't a talking snake or whatever it was. Then he went to the other extreme because now it was bleached was shattered, and they had no more belief in So now it's material, a materialistic atheists, it's like, therefore all this stuff is garbage. And I've realized, and I love the title of your book, spiritual practice, beyond belief, because that has double meaning, right? It's beyond what we can believe. But it's like, you don't just believe that. And you and I talked about this, when did the pre interview, you believe this? You know, this, you're investigating it?

Unknown: 37:47

Right, right. And then the most important thing, I think, that I've come to realize is that, you know, we can't have any final model of any final truth, because the thing that we're investigating consciousness or spirit is what we are. And as we investigate, we evolve, but so does what we are seeking. I mean, the whole so, you know, there's a beautiful quote, quote by Houston Smith, and it goes, the only unqualifiedly good, is extension of vision and enlargement of understanding. And it seems like if that's, that's our goal, like your friend, well, in our work, and it really is a mission, we have a lot of banners and thing that say, bridging the gap between belief and knowledge. So your friend, probably, hopefully, you know, we'll, we'll we'll go on that bridge, because it's built by science and religion. I mean, though, those two they're questing for the same information, the same quest is to expand our knowledge or understanding of what we call reality. And, yeah, so I feel I'd feel bad for your friend. My husband always told me that too. He said, No. But if you if I, you know, destroy someone's belief, then they're left with nothing. So that's not the idea.

Brian Smith: 39:11

Right? Right. Yeah, we want to help people explore, and we want to help people realize it's not an either or proposition to either your, our scientists, you know, to use that term, which science is a method, it's not a it's not a conclusion. But either your scientific or your religious. And it's not. And I would say, I'm probably I am scientific. But I know the science can only go so far. And I don't limit my experience based upon what science tells me. And, you know, the thing is, science has done a really good job, our society, of burying the truth, like, you know, you talked about Einstein, and plonk, and Bohr, and Heisenberg, and all these guys who believe in the spiritual world, and science was first founded because people believed in a God, and they believed in an orderly universe. And they said that the way to study this god way to get to know this God is to study his creation.

Unknown: 40:08

Sure, sure.

Brian Smith: 40:10

Yeah. So

Unknown: 40:13

you know, those guys didn't believe it. They knew it, too. That's what I did. When I was doing my research. I made this big, long list, and I updated it all the time of all these incredibly, you know, smart people. And I would like they believed in it, they believed in it, they believed in it. But no, of course, they didn't believe it, they knew it. They knew it.

Brian Smith: 40:31

Yeah. In fact, Einstein discovered a few things like when he's, you know, quantum mechanics, he's like, I don't like this, how, but he finally came to the conclusion, you know, it has to be real, because the evidence shows me that it's real.

Unknown: 40:44

Right. And you know what, I think if there's also Viktor Frankl, he says in there, so the man who lost, you know, really everything in Nazi concentration camps. And he says, in his book, he says, you know, it's not our task to just accept that the world is meaningless. Our task is to accept that we cannot understand the unconditional meaningfulness of life in rational terms. So a man who lost everything, he says, the unconditional meaningfulness of life. But the thing that stood out to me was that rational terms, and so what finding error and I realized now what, what it attempts to do is to show people that by using your brain, which God gave you which consciousness evolved, by using it, you can study and learn your way out of fear. You don't have to be afraid that you're somehow insulting God, by wanting to learn more. And you don't have to be afraid that you're falling for some sort of malarkey. Yeah, because science, I mean, science really says you investigate all data. So make this latest model, which we've already worked out of, you know, just that, you know, I didn't know it, but you can only accept data that falls within these very narrow parameters. But once you realize that, that's not science, that's pseudo science. Science investigates all data. Yeah. And makes which is what's happening now.

Brian Smith: 42:24

And that's, that's a really good point. You made there too, because science kind of closed down some of the scientific community I don't like to keep because scientists against the tech. That's a method myth. Yeah. So some, some people materialist said, we, we can't investigate that because it doesn't exist because it's impossible. And I've told this story before I was talking to someone said, there's no evidence for any stuff you believe. And I said, well read Dr. Julie baicells. Burke on mediumship read Gary Schwartz's work on mediumship and repentance arturas work on near death experiences. And he comes back to me and says, Well, that's about mediumship. That doesn't exist. So therefore, I'm not going to read it. And I said, Hey, that's not a very scientific approach. A scientist would put a medium in a situation and control and say, let's see if there's anything to this. And and that's been done.

Unknown: 43:14

Right. Right. Absolutely. So,

Brian Smith: 43:19

Kathy, I'd like you to talk about some because we've talked a lot about the science and the philosophy in your book, which is all great, but talk about some of the experiences that you outline in the book, because those are also just as fascinating.

Unknown: 43:31

Okay, well, first of all, you know, things started this idea I have in the book called claiming to number. Okay, well, I'm gonna I'll just go with some of the major experiences, let's say. So I'm Erin past, and we go to Spain. And then we go to Des Moines, Iowa, to have a funeral service here. And we're a lot of us stayed at his grandma's Shaffers home, and he had a Landrover and we had the car parked in Joanne Shaffers driveway. And this is after the service. And la Whoa, was outside and I came out, and all of a sudden Aaron's car started. And so they had his keys in his pocket. And he thought, Okay, well, he has a remote starter. So then candy came out. And being from Venezuela, he tells her Oh, my gosh, gets so cold in Iowa. And Aaron has a remote starter. And he took that little FOB thing. And you press the two buttons, and the car started up. So then he got inside, and he put the key in and had to turn it on and then off. And then like five minutes later, my sister Christie came out and he said, Hey, look, Aaron has a remote starter. And the same exact thing the car start. So then like three days later, we're having this farewell dinner for candy, who's going back to Spain. And I was telling the story and my sister in law, Debbie, whose family has a business where they install like speakers and remote starters and all these things. She said, Well, let me see the fob. And she goes, she looks at me. She goes, there's no remote remote starter on this. So then, you know, it kind of hit me, but not really. Not really. So then when we go out to Washington State to stay with my sister Ellen. Then the farm like kind of starts vibrating. And we don't really pay attention either. And then the Hill said, hey, look, you guys Aaron has remote starter and he goes, and it didn't work. And I was reading at the same time a book about a girl who went to her father's grave, and his car started spontaneously. I said you know what, maybe so we go we check the battery. No, it's not that. We get back to the Moines I immediately go to this Land Rover dealership who had done a pre trip check on the car. Because he had been sitting for a year and we were driving to Washington State and and I all I said was you guys accidentally disconnected the remote starter when you did the check is okay. They comes back and he goes well, I need the fob with the remote starter. And I said, that's the only FOB we have because one doesn't have a remote starter. And then I started bawling but my sister knock him. She had come in to that because she knew it was important. So she told him what happened. They when they check the car out, took about an hour then they came back in and they said okay, well, we're gonna check again. Okay. They checked again, he came out he said, There's no way the car started by itself. There's no way that you know, it must have been a ghost. And then I just was in shock. And Kim said, Yeah, that's what we think. What? The same car Brian A month later, for Aaron's birthday on November 3, I decided to have a detailed, so I take it into Casey's carwash in Fort Collins, Colorado. I go around, you know, crying every place and this really nice kid in Spanish invites me to meet his aunt and all this. I get back to the carwash. And I say, Well, you know, you didn't do such a hot job. And the kid said, Yeah, you're right, we'll do it again. So they're gonna go run it through again, and I walk off, but when I come back, the owners there and he said, Oh, I'm so sorry. We had an accident with your car. Then I fall to the floor and say I didn't take care of the car and this and that. But then he tells me this he said, You know, I don't know why we started the engine. We never start the engine. Unless we're gonna clean the motor, and he was on some kind of a conveyor belt, that car somehow moved and hit the car in front of it. And he goes, we're gonna have to get you a new bumper. And the only thing that was wrong with that land rover was it had a nick in the front bumper, but it was like 1600 bucks and we weren't going to do what you know. He goes, we'll have to get you a new bumper. So I called my sister Ellen, like, Oh, my errands car and she goes, Okay, got a new bumper for his birthday. The guy who owned the carwash, she said he'd been working there since he was 12. And he was about 50 or so then. He said he'd never ever, ever, ever seen that ever. In his whole entire life. Those, you know, those, those things don't happen. So, Kandi, who's an engineer, by her studies, when she came to the States, we went to check to make sure that somehow it couldn't have been moved along. The guy said, no, no, no, there's no way. He said, I've been here and she, you know, she looked at the conveyor belt and all this. So those are two, you know, quite, quite in your face experiences and things like that. There's a lot of small things that happen with numbers. There's a lot of huge things like one time and LG and LG. In Spain, I was standing in front of the shop that had a lot of candles, and some woman came up to me and said, Did you have a child who died, I see a kid standing beside you. I have things like that, that you just in, of course, the importance of of documenting everything. Because not only not only did I document I then started to take the pictures, I took everything, to somehow it felt like a mission. I mean, all of these things happen. And he kept feeling like a mission that Aaron and I were supposed to do this together. And some of the pictures, I then put in picture frames, so that you start to sink into that despair of that the physical body is gone. And I would look at those pictures and remind myself, but this happened. And that happened. And it kind of you know, pulls you up in a story with my dad, who passed just eight months before Aaron. I told him when he went into hospice, that my father in law had communicated with us by using numbers. Now think about this. Brian, I had had those experiences with my father in law. Yeah. But I just kind of accepted them at some level, but not really. Right, but not really. Because if I had, I would not have been so disoriented and so broken by Aaron's passing. So so they happened, but I just kind of file them away. Then I told my dad, you know, and they whose dad communicated, my dad shows a number and my dad passed. And I use this book, The Tibetan Book of the Dead. And I did this all these kind of different rituals with my dad, and it says, about 17 days after death, a person can start to send signals, so start to pay attention. So I did, yeah. On the 19th day, a lighthouse says to me, I've got bad news for you, I'm going to go on your walk with you, which is he never does not in the morning, ever, ever, ever. So we're walking alone. This was in Trinidad in the West Indies. And I had my earphones on, and my dad's song, which was memories are made of this. So you know, as a kid, he used to sing that to us. And he'd say six little kids for the flavor instead of three. And anyway, that song was on an illegal tap me on the shoulder. And he said, what, what daughter you for your dad? And I said, Well, baby girl number two, and he goes. So then Brian, he took me on this path, off the sidewalk down, we had to crawl underneath a barbed wire fence. And he showed me in this little rickety old dock this boat that said baby girl number two, and it had my dad's number on it, you know? And I felt it. I felt it and leader and like, why did he just say no, so my dad didn't put the boat there the boat was there. Right. But who put the idea into Laos had to walk with me, you know, which he never does? Who who convinced him to go off the site when you had to go through this path and on private property. So those those sorts of things have happened and still continue to happen.

Brian Smith: 52:07

Yeah, and I want to just slow you down for people to really absorb what what the says I mean, and again, you're kind of like I am where it's like okay, who How did this happen? Who causes Let's investigate the key fob. Let's investigate this. And we investigate it we find out we can't find a rational actor. formation. And there's something about and it's great hearing other people's stories because you realize something about the spirit world and numbers, they seem to come to us and numbers as you said, your father chosen number, right? And so I want to say to people, if you start seeing numbers on license plates, or you start to see repeating time on the clock, I noticed, as we were doing the interview, it hit 1111. I was just I tapped him to look at the clock when it did. So, you know, pay attention to those things. And just because we don't understand how they happen, doesn't mean they don't happen. That is not a scientific point of view. People say, Well, it's not scientific, because I can't rationally explain it. We don't we don't have to be able to explain it.

Unknown: 53:10

No, but we can see that's the whole point. We can. And I think that's key. Because rational thought it has many layers of meaning. Right? You know, one is like this logical based on materialism. Right? Right. That one that's one use of rational thought, but but by synchronicity, and Shawn says, clearly, synchronicity is always connected to numbers, right? So if you win, if you need to make a model, choose a model, do you design a model that allows your data and allows the data and you start recording all your evidence? As you do your research, you start seeing all of these other people that have had the same experience? Yeah. And you you can't we you can understand it rationally? I think that's the key.

Brian Smith: 54:00

Well, you made a good point. And I misspoke. So let me just let me clarify that we can't explain it from our known material models. And that's when we say we can't explain it. But we exactly we expand our model the universe to include consciousness, then we can explain it, we're all connected, the material is derivative of consciousness, not the other way around, right? Therefore, consciousness can have an effect on the material. And we have shown that scientifically, we've done the double slit experiment, we can show the consciousness does have an effect. So you're absolutely right. We can't explain it, but not from the point of view that we usually come from,

Unknown: 54:41

not from the old model, you're in people think like my brother, who's Oh, my God, she's smart as a whip. I was talking with him the other day. And I said, you know, it's easy for us to see when we look to the past, that old models didn't work. And they had to expand it. Right. And he said, You know, that's true when you talk about the past, but now we really do know what we're talking about.

Brian Smith: 55:04

That's what scientists said in the 80s. And the early 1900s. Is that everything that has been discovered or can be discovered? Let's close the patent office. Yeah, right. Right. And that's, and everybody at all stages of human development has said that in which you know, not to pick on your brother, but we think now we know, okay, well, now we know, you know what? We know?

Unknown: 55:27

Yeah, exactly. Is it just as they knew me, I remember my nephew telling me about how they used to be sick people like to beat the devil out of them. I'm like, Oh, my gosh. So it's so so easy to see, when we look back. And then it feels to me also very uplifting, and very motivating to think about humanity. All the struggles we've gone through and all the struggles we are going through and always, always it works for the good always that really extension of vision and enlargement of understanding is what we are about it. I don't know. It feels me sometimes like was off and admiration for humanity.

Brian Smith: 56:10

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I think it was it was in your book. I read this about the guy who discovered that washing hands all the time. Otherwise, yeah. Yeah. Tell people that I think that's really important.

Unknown: 56:23

Okay, well, now there's this tendency for people to not investigate beyond their beliefs. It's, it has a name, it's called the signwise effect. So there's this man named Simon wise, like an 1800s. He's in Vienna, and he's like, what maybe would be a chief resident nowadays have two different clinics. One was a midwife clinic for for midwives and women to go have their babies and the other one was a hospital where deliveries were part of what they did. So the hospital where he worked, had a death rate incredibly higher than the midwife clinic. And so people were afraid to go into the hospital, you know, women were given birth on the street, it well in their homes and having a much higher survival rate than in the hospital. So what happened was, he was interested in that and then his friend was doing an autopsy of a woman who died of what they called Child bed fever. So his friend was doing an autopsy, he cut himself with a scalpel. And he died of childbirth fever. So Simon Weiss thought, you know, there's a connection. And so he he noticed, of course, he became aware of the only place they did autopsies was in the hospital. Yeah. So he thought there's some way they're carrying something from the autopsy. They're carrying it to to this to women, and they're infecting them somehow. So he does put this experiment for two months, he had people wash their hands and coordinated climb, which I liked. What I don't know what that is, but some kind of an antiseptic. The death rates decreased by I don't know, like, 85%. Yeah. So then he spent years researching, he did research, he documented he researched, he documented, he published his big finding, and his colleagues refused to read it. Most of them refused to read it. Some of them said, it was an insult, you know, like doctors wash our hands, for goodness sakes. And other ones said, Well, only God can take away somebody's life. There's no little particles. He called them carnivorous particles. There's no little particles that can kill somebody. That's God. And so if the person died, you know, it was God's will. Yeah. Then he harassed them, you know, he was so angry. And he was like, here's all this documentation, they won't read it. Then they tricked him, this group of people tricked him into inspecting a mental institute. He went to the middle Institute, and they locked him up. They didn't let him out. He was beaten, and he died of infection. And he was like, 42 years old. Yeah.

Brian Smith: 59:09

Yeah. And it's such an important story about and this is where you met mentioned some others before that, you know, when you go beyond the current paradigm, people will try to literally beat you back into it. Right. And, and scientists, quote unquote, will look at something and say, well, that's impossible. You know, there are the there aren't these little particles floating around really killing people visible and visible? And but now we say, oh, yeah, that's common knowledge. And the reason why this is important is for us people that are explorers that are on the edge of the stuff when someone tries to put you back in the box when, you know, like Gary Schwartz, I mentioned a couple of times with Julie baicells, does scientific research. People will laugh at them, they'll ridicule them, they'll try to destroy their reputations. Because you're studying something that's impossible. And we know, we absolutely know that it's not.

Unknown: 1:00:00

I like that term. Pseudo scientists. I don't remember who, where I first came across that but maybe, maybe that quote about like, science and religion can be open ended, growth nurturing endeavors, or they can be little neurotic defense mechanisms, you know? So the he used the word pseudo scientist and pseudo religion, and I don't remember where I read that, but I like it. Yeah,

Brian Smith: 1:00:28

I think it's really important. So Kathy, talk about your, your nonprofit and where you're going with that.

Unknown: 1:00:34

Okay, well, I have a lay home, I have a foundation. It's called the Erin Schaffer Jensen Family Foundation. And we're doing, for example, on July 2, this summer is going to be our very first animated garden retreat. And that's Aaron's the anniversary of his passing date, which is very significant. And what we're going to do is we're going to go up to this girl scout camp in Boone, Iowa, a group of us are going to stay all night together. And I'm going to what I did before the pandemic, I used to have seminars and lectures and, and because I taught English for so long, I have all kinds of different games and things you manipulate with your hands. So you're not just sitting down and having a lecture, but you're actually moving around mixing with the other groups. And the idea of these retreats is to get people conscious of their unconscious beliefs about depth. And I have these little bells so that you know, like those little ringing bells at a hotel or something, you know, so if somebody gets trapped into a belief, and they're asserting it as a fact, when it's a theory, we have these bills so we can remove them on each other. You know, we've been we've been, and then we can just take a step back. And that way we're hoping to not so much avoid fights because people that are grieving and trying to find their kids, they're, they're not interested enough to fight about stuff. I don't think anyway, that's my experience. But to step back a little bit, and take a look at what we're doing, you know, what belief are we defending and like, bring that out into the open. So I also we're going to do it at no charge, because when Aaron passed, and I couldn't find anything without spending a fortune Everything was so expensive for Grievers we like, I found one weekend in California once a year, this place did a free workshop. Otherwise, I mean, it's just so anyway, that was part of my deal. I wanted to share what I was learning in a way that people could be motivated to do their own research. That's the deal. No, I'm not telling anybody to do anything. I'm just offering a whole bunch of resources is my idea. And, and also, once COVID is over, I'll go back to doing like lectures and I, I wanted very much to work with hospice, and to try to offer an opportunity to their volunteers, when people are having an experience for them to have a background. That would be useful when when my dad passed. And I went to hospice counseling in, in Colorado, but so my dad passed, and then Aaron passed, and it was within the same year. So I had access to this counseling. And I told three different counselors. Some of the stuff that's in the book, you know, this happened, and that happened in this. And they were just like this. Well, yeah, you know, they say that that stuff does happen.

Brian Smith: 1:03:38

Yeah, yeah. kind of pat me on the head, there you go.

Unknown: 1:03:43

Time, time will heal. So they didn't have a clue of how to use the information I was giving them. So that hospice is an area I would really very much like to to get my foot into the door. And so that's the work of the Foundation, to answer your question is to try to help buy motivate motivating people to bridge that gap between belief and knowledge.

Brian Smith: 1:04:08

Yeah, that's, that's really I know, that's really important work. And it's interesting. You talk about hospice, because I work with someone who works with the chaplains. She is a chaplain. And the thing about chaplains is they're not supposed to impose their beliefs, their beliefs on anybody else. Right. Right. Which this is a time where in the Unites again, we'd say it's not beliefs, we're trying to give people hope. We're trying to get people, you know, there's there's data out there, this is not a matter of belief. And we've, we've categorized everything we've you and I talked about as belief and I love, you know, unites, but the first time because you said, I'm trying to get people beyond belief. And I'm like, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. So I know the the mission that you're on, I know Aaron is right there with you every step of the way, just like my daughter's saying is,

Unknown: 1:04:55

yeah, absolutely. And you know what? I think it's like, the kids were together, because people, people get in touch with me. And then it turns out that our kids have a lot in common. And, yeah, we're just gonna talk about it. I have a friend who's a chaplain also in hospice. But she told me, she said, Gosh, Kathy, if I had a dime, every time I had to explain the difference with an opiate induced hallucination and a visit for Rambo, right, I could retire. And the point I tried to make in the hospice, I went to the hospice volunteer program, hoping that maybe I could somehow talk to the volunteers. And the young women, they were beautiful, but they said just what you said. They said, No, we can't put our beliefs. But in fact, the fact that they won't allow a discussion is endorsing their beliefs, right, that is a belief. So they're actually endorsing their own culturally imposed belief, rather than opening the door to different ideas.

Brian Smith: 1:05:58

Yeah, absolutely. 100%. I am so excited about the work that you're doing. It's really awesome. So I know, the book is incredible as it is, but I know you're coming out with a second edition. So tell us about that. And when it's going to be available anything?

Unknown: 1:06:13

Well, it's, I decided to call it a revision. Because when I chatted with people about adding information, so some people told me oh, great, great, because I wanted to know, I wanted to hear more about that model. And I wanted this and that, but then other people said, no, no, no, no, it's perfect like it is. And other people said, no, no, no, it's too hard. So don't put anything else in there. You know, I got dizzy, you know. So what I did was I added three revisions and maybe a fourth, but I mean, appendices. So the basics of the book stays the same. And in the revisions. In the book, I had to put in the more information about synchronicity because it's key to be able to rationally process what's going on. And then my friend Donna, she's the one who convinced me to do this. This is a woman who was raised very, very, very dogmatically inside of this Lutheran Church Missouri Synod group is very, very strict. So she she's a reader. And so she and I got in touch and she told me the very first beginning She told me, but you know, I'm afraid it's the devil that she said. But now I'm afraid that I might end up where, where my daughter's not. And so working with her, I've decided, and so she and I went on this quite intense reading of early Christian texts, which I had been like you before. In past, I had read dozens of books about the Bible, you know, Elaine Pagels, I'd read a lot. But now I started looking at really the very, very, very early text. And I know about the Gospel of Thomas, and this and that. But so with that work, and knowing in the very beginning of this one woman told me, she said, I think it's supposed to be for Christian groups. And Aaron told me in this dream, he wanted me to work like in a church. And so then I started thinking, the very, most painful belief is that you're forbidden to talk to your kids after they've died. That that's, that's the most harmful, most painful, most restrictive belief. So anyway, I added an appendix about that. And she's actually she's writing a little piece in there. Because her daughter, Brian, two months before that young woman died of a brain aneurysm, no warning, no, nothing. She posted a thing about why do we believe what we believe? And she says in there, to her daughters, you know, don't just listen to me and your dad, don't just listen to the pastor don't think you know about the Bible read about she, and two months later, she's born. So what's helping her mom more than anything else, Kim, her daughter, that post that post did left her instructions, really. So that's the difference. I've just added more information, but at the back of the book, so that people who found it just right, are fine. The people who found it too soft, they're fine. And the people who found it too hard, I just put in a little letter and said, you know, please, just, everything is too hard. Until you until you learn a bit more. Yeah, this book will soon become, you know, just try it and then way too soft. And then you reach for a book that's wider. Yeah,

Brian Smith: 1:09:41

I tell people, you know, we have to kind of reach beyond our grasp. Sometimes, you know, sometimes sometimes there's a book, and I've read some that I liked the first time through, it's like, wow, that was a lot of reading again. And your book is very, almost academic, because I actually listened to it. And so they're all the footnotes. So when you get to the end of the chapter, you know, she's the the thing is reading off all the footnotes, but it's well documented. So for somebody who's scientifically minded, if you're like, Okay, well, I don't know, I'm not just gonna take Kathy's word for you've got like, you've got it, you've got to document it. So it's, it's really great. And I encourage people to get it and to and to read it. And even if you don't get 100% of it, if you get 75% of it's a lot more than you've already got.

Unknown: 1:10:31

Well, my sister told me that she read one of my sisters, she read it first without looking at it in the footnotes. And she's had a lot of experiences working in hospitals, she's had a lot of experience with after death communication. So she read it through for the stories. That's what she liked the best. And then she read it through for the footnotes. And something else I've added to the new revision is an extensive bibliography, not alphabetically, but in little groups. Like, for me the things I kept reading, reading, reading, were about after death, communication, and then to kind of expand, you know, that way. So that's yeah, there,

Brian Smith: 1:11:06

it makes some really great jumping off point because I could see reading this book, and then going to the bibliography. And just, you know, I talked about this earlier, cuz I asked you, how have you been doing this last time we spoken? You were so excited talking about all the stuff you've been reading, and it just, once you get on this on this path, things just fall in front of you.

Unknown: 1:11:24

Right? You know, and this is, this is a method, it is a method of evolution of consciousness, individuation self transformation, inner transformation, there's so many names for it, but this is a very valid path. You know, and where could there be more motivation, that's why it feels to me important that because people are grieving, depending on the person. They're, they're just more open in the very beginning. They're more open, you know, and then they just and then later on, there's that one quote, I don't want to use the word fool, but this is how the quote goes. When we're separated from someone we love by death, fools cry for a while and then forget, but the wise find the impulse to seek their loss loves in the heart of the turtle. No, by that seeking the loss loves in the heart of the eternal, you change. You know you and I'm, I'm willing to bet that they change. Also, evolution of consciousness doesn't stop just because you don't have a physical body.

Brian Smith: 1:12:33

Yeah, we're definitely working together, or anything, any last thing you like to say before we close today?

Unknown: 1:12:40

No, just thank you very, very much. Thank you for your interest. And thank you for inviting me. And I really, really do appreciate it. And I just say to people out there that you know, it's up to you, it's up to you. It's there, your beliefs. It's your, you do what you want with them. But there's so much more to our whole experience, and the ones that will be most motivated to help you or your kids or your loved ones, you know, could be your mom and your dad. I don't want to just say children, but it's just

Brian Smith: 1:13:15

so find your admission. 75 Five dotnet

Unknown: 1:13:19

Yes, yeah. And you can order the book from it's on Amazon, and it's on the website. I'm the one who fulfills the orders. So I know kind of tried to write a little note terms and I've made friends that way too, that you know, friends that are

Brian Smith: 1:13:33

and so I'll be in the notes, but I like to get it on on video and audio so people that don't read the notes. So the book is finding Aaron a spiritual practice beyond belief and is by Kathy Jetson Kathy Jane Jensen Jane Jensen Kathy Jane Jensen. It's je and SCN. Again. That'll be in the notes. Kathy, really fascinating conversation. I knew it was going to be thanks for being here today and enjoy the rest of your day.

Unknown: 1:13:57

Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Till the next time

Brian Smith: 1:14:03

don't forget to like hit that big red subscribe button and click the notify Bell. Thanks for being here.